Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
Ever wish you had your own personal cheerleader or coach in your ear, whispering encouraging words? Telling you how to kick butt in life, plus showing you how to get there? That’s exactly what you’ll get when you tune into Your Joyful Order Podcast. Each week you’ll get a mixture of preaching and teaching from your host Leslie Martinez who is a Certified Life Coach, Business Owner, Wife and Mom. Listen along for some entertaining real talk about life, business and relationships. Leslie wants to help you to reach your goals and motivate you to live out your God given purpose, by bringing you insightful knowledge, resources and sharing some tips and tricks to take action. No topic is off the table here, just know that faith will always be the foundation of our conversations and an occasional kick in the butt might come in the most loving way! Get ready to take your life to the next level and learn how to chase joy!
Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
#72 The Unseen Strengths of Women in Ministry with Pastor Dawn Jackson
Pastor Dawn Jackson takes us on a journey from her early days at the pulpit to her influential role as a pastor and life coach. Her story is a testament to the power of embracing one's calling, breaking through the barriers faced by women in a predominately male-dominated sphere, and the sheer joy she finds in guiding others through life's peaks and valleys.
Our heart-to-heart with Pastor Dawn illuminates the transformative initiatives of the importance of programs that support women in ministry, which are revolutionizing support for Christian women leaders. We touch upon the scriptures that anchor women's place in church leadership, with stories of Jesus's own regard for women as disciples. It's a discussion that underlines the strides made and the nurturing of a vibrant, faith-fueled community.
Pastor Dawn's wisdom and strength have been a guiding light in my own venture into ministry and I hope she brings some light to your path of where God is taking you. It's an episode that not only celebrates the leaps made by women in leadership, but also seeks to embolden those ready to tread their own path with joy and unwavering faith.
Make sure to connect with Dawn Jackson:
Website: https://www.thiswayfaringlife.net
Listen to her Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-wayfaring-life/id1701008938
Follow on IG: @rundawnjackson
Recommended You Tube Sermon on Women In Church Leadership:
https://youtu.be/PKetqpnVI24?si=0h5PomICatwLDkS7
Book Recommendations:
The Boys in the Boat by Daniel James Brown: https://a.co/d/4cltK5I
Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero: https://a.co/d/7VbUjk5
Connect with Leslie:
Follow on IG: @yourjoyfulorderstyle
Website: https://www.yourjoyfulorder.com/
Email: lmartinez@yourjoyfulorder.com
to schedule- Speaking Events, Interviews or Life Coaching Sessions
Shop my SOAP the Gospels Journal on Shopify:
https://shopjoyfulorder.com/
Listen to this Episode on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsXoAYIM2mfclNtYiaOzIUw
Shop my Journal (Gratitude, Goals & Prayer Journal) on Amazon:
https://a.co/d/09Djvaw
Book a FREE 30 Minute Discovery Coaching Call: https://tidycal.com/joyfulordermedia/30-minute-meeting
Hey everyone, I'm Leslie Martinez and you're listening to your Joyful Order Podcast. Each week I will bring you joyful stories that will motivate and inspire you and, at the same time, bring order to your everyday life. Let's just say the show will be a mixture of preaching and teaching, with a kick of motivation from your girl here. Welcome to your Joyful Order Podcast Today. I am so honored and privileged.
Speaker 1:I have a very, very special guest and I warned her before she came on that I am going to do a very special bio for her, because this is a woman that has impacted my life more than I think she even knows and already I'm going to get a motion about it.
Speaker 1:But this woman literally laid the foundation for my career in ministry and I don't think that she realizes the impact that she has had in my life. She's been not just a pastor, a leader, a coach and a friend in many various times in my life. This woman has impacted me in ministry for well over 20 years and I always joke that I want to be like her when I grow up. And as I sit here, I sit here so honored and humbled. I shared with her that she's been on my list for a very long time, way longer than I probably should have reached out to her a lot sooner to have her on my podcast, and I never feared her saying no. I feared my worthiness to have her on the show, and that's a different conversation that we'll have the whole imposter syndrome. So this woman has walked the walk, she talks the talk. She has so much integrity, humility and grace and I am honored and privileged to have Pastor Don Jackson on the podcast today. So welcome, don.
Speaker 2:Wow, you did warn me ahead of time and that was incredibly sweet and kind and generous. So thank you, leslie, and it's an honor, it is such an honor to be here. I'm excited for today and excited for what you're doing through your podcast. So thank you, yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, I just I kind of want to add a little bit of not just who Don was to me personally, but Don is actually the founder of the Wayfaring Life LLC, which actually offers faith based growth coaching for life, leadership and spiritual formation, and she is also the current women's pastor at One and All Church. She's a conference speaker and member of Perpel Ecclesia coaching team and, like I mentioned, she is just passionate about supporting people in developing their leadership. And outside of ministry, don is a phenomenal runner. She loves to hike trails all through Southern California and go backpacking, and she's my inspiration in all those areas also. But today I want to dive into the conversation with you, don. I want you to start off by just sharing your story of how you got called into ministry, your story of being a woman in ministry and maybe some challenges that you might have had with that. Sure sure.
Speaker 2:So you know, if you, when I go back and look at my story when I was growing up, the last thing I thought I would be would be a pastor. I loved Jesus. I came to Christ just as a little girl in Sunday school class, and never really fully walked away at any particular time, had times where I, you know I made deeper commitments to the Lord. But I come from a family that had been in the ministry and I had seen some really hard stuff behind the scenes and so it just wasn't, wasn't even on my radar that I would be a pastor. Plus, there weren't that many women pastors around. Well, because we're talking, I've been in the ministry 35 years, so some of your listeners were not. They weren't even a twinkle in their mama's eye.
Speaker 2:You know, so that it was just like this is a long time ago.
Speaker 2:And so I was going to school over at APU at my undergrad with social science history and I was volunteering at our junior high program at church and one of the guys who was overseeing junior high in those days he said why don't you minor in ministry? And then you could intern here at the church and give ministry hours. And I thought you know what that's cool, because I was falling deeper and deeper in love with Jesus and I thought I'd be a school teacher and then I'd use my summers to go out and like, take kids on mission trips and you know, and all that kind of stuff. And so I got into this ministry credential program at school and I began interning at the church and what I came to find is that as I would speak, I was given opportunities to share in youth ministry, that something would come alive in my spirit and I couldn't explain it other than like when you read the Bible and you hear how Jeremiah says, it's like this fire burning inside of me. I would just get passionate about speaking in front of the students. And so when the church offered me the position as a junior high minister, I realized that I didn't. I love teachers, I think they're fantastic, but I realized I wasn't called to do five periods a day teaching, you know, social science. The same thing over and over again every day. It just wasn't me. I was loving the youth ministry side of things, the adventure, taking kids on these encounters, which Jesus out in Mexico or the Navajo Nation in different places, like that. So I was like, okay, I'll do this, but still I didn't think I'd do it for a long period of time because it just wasn't in my I don't know, it's just how I I didn't see myself.
Speaker 2:I saw pastors back in those days. For most, for the most part, I saw pastors as very boring people who just sat in this office Like I. I didn't, I just and I love adventure, right. So like I, just I don't know about this whole thing. So anyway, I did youth ministry then for 10 years and grew a lot and uh, then was like you know what, it's time to resign from this. It was going to go back to get my master's at Fuller and, um, I didn't know what I was going to do, job wise. And that's when the church said, well, hey, you know what if you take on some adult pastoral responsibilities which, once again, I didn't have a paradigm for, I didn't see this in me. But I thought, well, I can do this while I'm getting my master's. So to me it was just the next step. But I didn't see my. I didn't see myself staying at the same church in a job for 33 years like I did.
Speaker 2:I just kept living one day at a time and what, basically, what ended up happening as I became the pastor of small groups, then leadership, and then I was uh asked to be on the executive team, and so there's just been this journey and um, and now, when it came to challenges, I think part of the reason that I was even so slow to really embrace me as a pastor, as a single woman, um, was there were not role models out there back in those days Very few. You know this is when I was getting going. This is prior to Joyce Myers being well known or anything like that. Christine Kane, you know she was. You know I know Chris, because the church I was at we were the very first church she came to here in the States and I was a youth pastor back then and we asked her to speak at a youth event, and so she was. She was just getting started and becoming known outside of Australia. So, um, you know, since this time she's been a huge inspiration to me and she's a friend of mine and that's awesome, and a mentor of mine, you know.
Speaker 2:But there weren't I there just were not examples, and so I think some of the challenges that I faced early on, when I did begin to lean into being seeing that and recognizing God's call in my life as a pastor, was was really difficult to find a mentor. I was basically mentored by men, and in ways that were appropriate. Of course, you know you have to, of course, have the right you know what that looks like but I was mentored by men. Um, one of them would have been like Bob Reeve, who was my. He oversaw me over at the church, over at Faith, for so long and he spoke deeply into my life Dr Jim as well, just through more, through his preaching. It's like I was going out golfing with the guys or anything.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just different being a female.
Speaker 2:There was that awkwardness, and so I had to really lean in through books, and that was probably one of the biggest ones and the case now I was at a church, and then now, too, I also had a church, because I'm no longer at Faith, I'm over at one and all, and both churches are very, very were pro women in ministry, so that wasn't like a.
Speaker 2:I was standing on the shoulders of other women who went ahead of me and open doors were opened, and so I never had to worry about those doors. However, there were times when people showed up at the church who struggled with seeing a woman in a leadership position or in a pastoral position or preaching on a weekend on a platform, and sometimes those people who struggled were not the nicest, and every once in a while they would confront me, you know, out in the lobby or something like that, and even overseas on some missions. We were in some locations that just didn't believe in women being in that type of role, and so in that, in those situations and missions, I just went with whatever the people at the church were comfortable with. It's not about me building a platform or trying to, you know, ram something down somebody's throat on how I think they need to do church, but really being open to what is the Holy Spirit doing here and how can I get behind it and not make this about me, but those would be, you know, some of the challenges.
Speaker 2:Where do you find a mentor who's going to help me grow in this and being single also? It had its had its great parts in that my schedule is my own, but also the challenging parts in that I come home into a dog, you know. So I'm not coming home to a spouse that I can unpack things with and that would support me in various decision making, you know, and things along those lines. So that's some of the initial and that's sort of the road yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it, so you're one of the coaches for propel Ecclesia and I don't know that I've shared this on my podcast yet, but I am part of a cohort this this year of propel Ecclesia. I don't have Don personally as a coach, but in this space of the propel mentorship with under the under Christine Cain and some other amazing leaders. Last month we were at a conference where we kicked off just the next several months that we're going to be doing mentorship and you know life together and Don I was floored in this topic of women in ministry, and I was. It was barely brought to my attention that there are challenges still out there that women are facing in other parts of the country and other parts of the world.
Speaker 1:I myself grew up in a church. When I was younger I went to Crenshaw Christian Center. Betty Price was always up in the, in the forefront of leading and speaking at the church, and then I went to faith. You're up front at the church. Pastor Grace was up at her at in the front pastor Marguerite.
Speaker 1:Like every church that I had went to, I have seen the women lead up front. I have had basically almost what you're saying that you didn't have. I had these mentors that I can look up to Joyce Meyer, christine Cain, coming up along this time, beth Moore, all of these phenomenal, trailblazing women that I guess I was very oblivious of the fact that these women face any type of adversity prior to me coming into the church, and when I sat in this room with other women from other parts of the country and they started to share that they are still not welcomed up at the pulpit unless they are married, unless their husband is a leader in the church, I was floored. And in more experience, how would you say that just the landscape of women's ministry has changed over the past three decades that you've been in ministry?
Speaker 2:Sure, that's a great question and it is. It is amazing, even like today, as you're saying, within within propeller Closia, you see so many different situations and scenarios on what that looks like. And so you know, when you know, 30 years ago there weren't a lot of examples that there were different Denominations and of course we were independent, but we were very, were very much more like a four-square church which was started by Amy simple McPherson. So you had a woman who founded that denomination, and so my background, also my father's side, is assembly of God and so you have they've been for you for a long time have embraced having women in leadership, and so you would have pockets of things that were there. So there's these, you know the different pockets of these different churches from assemblies, four square and such, and even farther back you can go, like you can look at the Quaker movement back in the 16 and 1700s. They actually were early proponents of women being and speaking and teaching, is that? So you have there's, there's pockets, and but one of the things that I've seen like in my lifetime and in my ministry time, a keep component Conversation I was having with Christine came one day and this is right as she was thinking about launching propel was, you know that, women.
Speaker 2:It's women in ministry, but also but but churches were. Some churches were having a hard time embracing women in ministry, but there were women in marketplace jobs who were really looking for coaches as well, really looking to grow as well as Christian leaders, so we can be a leader in the home, we can be a leader as a teacher, we can be a leader as a CEO or a CFO or lawyer. You know so that. But there wasn't a lot that was building into them in the sense of like mentoring them as Christian women in those areas, and so it was out of that space that Chris began to think about propel, right and so, and developed propel.
Speaker 2:Propel then launched 10 years ago and then, just a couple of years ago, this is what I was transitioning off faith, off faith staff, and Chris knew I was gonna be transitioning and she and Tara Beth we're having this conversation about so many women were coming directly to them saying we need to be mentored. Tara Beth was getting so many women, I was and she's like I can't do all of this. There's so many that are looking for this. So it was what, if we start something, and then, which is how Ecclesia, she and Chris talking, and that's how Ecclesia got started, and while it's only been a couple of years use, there's tremendous change that has occurred. It's women in leadership in so many churches from pre-pandemic to post-pandemic, and I don't know if the pandemic played into it. It's just there was so much change that happened during that time period and churches who Really struggled maybe in the past seeing women in leadership roles, many of those have shifted on that are far more open and Because you have programs like propel Ecclesia and there are other programs out there as well coaching programs you have women who are very seasoned and have maybe been in the into this for a while are mentoring this next generation.
Speaker 2:So I'm actually seeing exponentially things change and grow right now. In the last, just in the last couple of years. There's more opportunity to get built up and, as I see these women come through propel Ecclesia, some of them are coming in and they have their own questions like when did what does the Bible teach along these lines, and so some of them are coming from some very conservative theology along those lines to then experiencing the freedom that the Holy Spirit is putting into them, and it's just beautiful to see what God is doing in all the different areas through these women, but it in the insoms, and I'll stop talking here. In Psalms it talks about how a mighty throng of women right will be proclaiming and I just see this mighty throng of women being developed. And it's not this militant thing at all, it's. It's actually. It's about understanding their call and Living according to their call, walking in accordance to the call. So it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1:That's, that's awesome. You know, I I went. One of the women that I have been really impacted by also is my current pastor, pastor Bianca, and Another woman that has, you know, kind of laid the foundation for women to come along under her also. But I was just listening to a recent podcast of hers literally today, the she she just dropped about women in ministry also, and I was like, oh, how timing is this that I'm about to have this conversation with you and and some of the challenges that were encountered that she had shared very similar to you, of mentors and just Resistance. You know, she's always gone before to places where she has been invited and there have been people that have come and have, you know, said things about her being in there and speaking and even just opening a Bible. It's like, wait a minute, women aren't supposed to open a Bible and and read from it in front of thousands of people. And I like I don't know if God was protecting me from this dawn, because if I heard some of this, not only would it have fueled a fire in me, but I at some point I think it might have been a little discouraging where I'm like, do I want to go this path where women are still sent to to the back of the room or, you know, hey, no, we, we need you to just serve in hospitality. That's where you're gonna serve.
Speaker 1:And Sitting in this room at propel, listening to some of the stories that these women were we're sharing, I was, like you know, I think God's timing is always right on time. I think my spiritual maturity is at a level now where I can look at it and say and not get angry about it, if that makes sense. You know, that's your charity about it. We're now, you know it's come to it's. It's been an eye-opener for me, for sure. And now, so like some of the things that Pastor Bianca had shared too, is not only resistance as a woman, but resistance as a woman of Ethnicity. You know, and there are some challenges and undergoing that that still happen in the church. And I just want to know you are a Theologian by nature and that's what I love about you. You can share so much from your theological perspective Now, are there that you can think of right now? Are there specific theological Perspectives that actually support women in leadership positions?
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's a lot of different ways of actually answering that out of the scripture and so lots of examples. I remember when I was at Fuller, my eyes being open because I already believed that women should be in leadership, but I was like, tell me where to go in the Bible? I was like I don't know. I took some coursework and it was really actually very interesting. And so you can look at a couple of different things in the scriptures. And if you're looking at like Jesus with, first of all, Jesus had women who were following him as disciples. That was unheard of. They actually paid the expenses for the ministry out of their own pocket. They funded the gospel going out. So there's business women, that business, yeah, business women that are funding the gospel.
Speaker 2:When you look at the very first person that Jesus even acknowledges that he's the Messiah to, and then she goes and tells people was the woman at the well, Like that's the very first. If you look at the stores and if you're looking at timelines, there's this woman who is an outcast of all outcast. She's a Samaritan, she's you know. We find in the story that she's been with five men and now the man she's with us and her husband and she's shamed. And Jesus has a conversation with her. He sees her, he talks with her and when she's talking about how the Messiah is going to come, she's like he's like I'm he. And so, like he didn't, he didn't reveal it to his disciples first. Or a Jew, he chose a woman, a Samaritan woman with a bad reputation, and she went and shared the good news. She's the first one to share the good news about who Jesus is, the first one to share the good news about the resurrected Jesus. Like the actual evangelism, right, Eugenio and Galeon. The good news of Jesus were women, which is a great apologetic for the fact that Jesus really rose from the dead, because the disciples would have never made up a story that a woman saw this, because a woman's testimony that Mone wasn't taken and wasn't validated. Yet Jesus shows himself to a woman first, says go and tell. And they're the very first ones.
Speaker 2:You go into the book of Acts. Oh my gosh, I'm trying to remember their names right now. Phoebe oh my gosh, I should know this off the top of my head. Anyway, when you look in the book of Acts, you see there's a married couple that's doing ministry together. They're mentioned three times. The first time the husband's name is mentioned first and then the wife's name, Then the next two times the wife's name is mentioned first.
Speaker 2:In the Greek, the way sentence structure works is you'll put the most important or prominent parts usually first in the sentence, but by the fact that the woman's name was mentioned first, most scholars believe she was actually the primary teacher of the two and they're the ones who instructed Apollo in the way. Wow, so you look at Romans, chapter 16, some scholars would say Junius, it's actually the female version of that name. Some scholars would say, well, no, that was just. You know, it could also be male. But Lot would say, nope, this is a female and she's known as like an apostle or high level teaching. So there's all types of things.
Speaker 2:Now do we have interesting statements that are made out of like Timothy and such, you know, about a woman not speaking in church? Yes, and we need to look at things in the context in which they're written and say first, remember that scripture must interpret scripture, and so when you look at that, there's great teaching out there to show that it's. You know, gifts are not gender specific, and so women utilizing those gifts you can see it through the scriptures and that it's validated. Let me just say this too. So if somebody were listening in there, like I'd really love to hear a good teaching on this probably about I don't know, maybe nine months ago or so, Bridgetowns, pastor Tyson he is amazing.
Speaker 2:Anyway, they did a, they did a talk to their entire church because for the first time, they were putting a woman on officially onto the board and so, as an elder ship, they had researched it for months. Then he put this talk together and it's all on YouTube or on their podcast, and actually the one is Bethany Allen, who's one of our coaches and so, but he goes into this amazing teaching about women in leadership and what I think is cool is it is Taylor. Taylor Staten is his name. He, this is a man doing this and it is beautiful. So it's easy to find out there on YouTube. If somebody was like, just look up Bridgetown, Tyler Staten.
Speaker 1:Elders in church women you know, okay, I actually I will make sure to add that in the show notes so that the listeners can just click the link for that too. And I have the privilege of actually taking Bethany's course at the propel breakout sessions of women in ministry and speak a little bit on that. And I mean, when talking about theologically, like going down that road of women in ministry, I couldn't keep up like my notes. I was just writing, writing, writing, because she brought so much scripture to to share with us about that and so insightful too. And one of the things that you had shared and this is this has become my inspiration of the Bible. I have been heavy in the gospels. Right now God really just has me sitting in the gospels right now. I have, I've read through them this is now my second time just kind of going through, like Matthew, mark, luke and John and acts and so forth, and I'm, you know, the great thing about reading them over and over is that you're reading each perspective, like each story in a different perspective, you know. So Mary Magdalene has become like my new hero of the Bible and specifically because I'm like God chose her to go spread the message of his resurrection, you know. And then just the story of how, how close she was to him but even so, where, like, he came out of the grave, that she didn't recognize him at first and she thought that he was like a gardener or something like that, right, and she thought he was an owl and when he spoke, she really didn't hear. But it wasn't until he said her name, where he said Mary and she was like teacher. She said it in Arabic or I forget what you know what, what it was, but basically she was like teacher, like that's you, but it wasn't until he heard, she heard his name, that she knew it's Jesus. And I just think that relationship of how close she was to where, like I'm thinking she had her back turned. This is someone that she thought this isn't Jesus, he's dead, where is he, where is his body? And then, all of a sudden, just the soft whisper of Mary and she's like it's him. And that story just always touches my heart.
Speaker 1:And as I've been going deeper and deeper with the Gospels and with Mary Magdalene, seeing her written in each of these, I'm like this woman was everywhere. She was everywhere, yes, she was, yes, yes, everywhere, with Jesus learning, preaching, and this is someone when you were talking about the people that funded Jesus ministry. She was one of them that helped fund, you know, his ministry because she was there along the way and she's been such like. I just love learning about her right now and I've been so impacted of her role in the discipleship of Jesus, in what she played of Jesus's ministry during that time, and that's where we're looking at.
Speaker 1:Jesus put women in these places for a reason, and that's my hope and inspiration is like, okay, let's. And when you look at Mary's past too, like here was this broken woman, demon possessed, like Jesus, you know, took her brokenness and still was able to use her. And I feel like there are so many women that are out there that are broken, that are coming from such bad backgrounds and they tell themselves I'm not worthy to do ministry, I'm not worthy for this calling because of where they came from. But when you look at Mary, it's like Jesus used Mary, she, and she probably didn't feel worthy also, and can we just kind of go down that road a little bit, dawn, because I know that this is something big that you shared.
Speaker 1:About the whole imposter syndrome, I've dealt with it, you've expressed that, you've dealt with it and I think it's something that just women by nature definitely deal with. So just that impact, what imposter syndrome has. I feel that there are so many women that are being called to and not just called into ministry, but called to do something that is gonna impact, you know, someone's life, or just to do big things, but they have that imposter syndrome. How, what can you share to those women that are dealing with that right now?
Speaker 2:Sure. First of all, I would say you're not alone. Studies show that 70% of people deal with imposter syndrome at some point or another. You can look that up online. That's the number that comes up 70% and the majority of those and I don't know, I'm not sure what the percentages are, but the majority are women, and if you're a woman coming from like a minority culture, even more so. So it is, first of all, very, very, very, very common, and even people like Maya Angelou don't with it. So if you're dealing with it, you're not alone.
Speaker 2:She, my, my Angelou, wrote about it. How this next book that you know she was coming out oh my gosh, I might've written 10, but this one now, they're gonna find me out, they're gonna see, you know. Basically, imposter syndrome, if your listeners are not aware, is when you have this feeling, despite the fact you had success and achievements, but you have this feeling that you're gonna be found out to be a fraud, and I believe it's really tied tightly into shame, because shame is this message of you're not enough, you don't have what it takes, and that could come either because of choices we've made in the past, in the past, but it could also be things that are more like come from our background, like growing up years where maybe we came from an abusive household or alcoholic parents and we had no control and so we didn't have the. So there's lots of reasons why shame can be there and I believe, imposter syndrome some that taps into some of that. And so, with imposter syndrome, I dealt with it when and I still have to I still have to disarm it on a regular basis because when I would preach especially my early years preaching maybe I'd get off the platform and I will have maybe done well when people felt like it really connected with them.
Speaker 2:So I'm getting compliments after church, but on my drive home my thoughts are like, okay, you know, that was luck. There's no way you're gonna be able to do that again. People are going, they're gonna ask you to speak, you're gonna get up there and people are gonna come expecting and you're not gonna have anything to say and they're gonna ask why was she put up there? She's a fraud, she, you know, and so you're gonna be found out, you know, and just this. So a couple of things on that. First of all, with syndrome, when you start to feel like you're well, first of all, my coach just told me this. He said hey, don the imposters don't get imposter syndrome, and so by the sheer fact that you have imposter syndrome means you're not an imposter, all right. So that gives a little bit of hope, right there.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's good.
Speaker 2:Second is that if you deal with it right, yeah, it is really good. That made me feel better, yeah. Second, it was actually through this coach that I learned what imposter syndrome was. So it's just having a label for it and a name, a term, because for years I struggled but I told nobody self, which is what she does, because that was wrong with me, and so it just isolates you, right? So if you're with it, own it, just own it. There's power. If you can name it, you can tame it. And then, third thing I'd say here just real quick to overcome imposter syndrome, one of the things you have to do is reframe it and, rather than being like freaked out by it, recognizing it and saying, oh, that means I'm going to learn something, cause it's a symbol, you're gonna grow. You're just stepping into some area where you're gonna be stretched, and we don't learn by just staying stagnant. We have to stretch ourselves. So I can greet imposter syndrome now and say, oh yeah, I see you there, and that means I'm gonna learn something. And then it's like well, what if I fail? Failure is not bad. We all failed when we were learning how to walk as children, but our parents encouraged us on. So failure isn't bad. And then I'll stop here on this after this one In the Bible.
Speaker 2:I love this story. It's the story of Gideon when he is threshing the wheat in the wine. Whatever that was, there was some hole in the ground. The wine press cause he's hiding from the enemy who has defeated Israel. And the angel of the Lord shows up and says you, mighty warrior. And he's looking around like who are you talking to? It's not me. And then God gives him this huge assignment and he's like I can't do it, I'm not enough. God's answer to him it's like judges six is go in the strength that you have. So he doesn't expect him to be enough. So when the strength that you have, I'm sending you, I am with you. And so for all of us, when we're called to step into these areas, go with the strength that you do have. You don't have to be enough, because God's already ordained for you to go, and even with you, he's with you, he makes you more than enough. So some thought.
Speaker 1:That's so good, that's. I gotta give that one a clap because that's so, that's so good. And just you kind of tied in the last question that I was going to ask about, like what advice would you have for women going into ministry? And I think you just said it right there, right there, yeah, because just know that God is with you and just go.
Speaker 1:Yes, it definitely has been a challenge but, as I shared in the beginning, I dealt with imposter syndrome to even say Don, can you be a guest on my podcast? Because I didn't feel like I was worthy enough you know like this is a woman that I've looked up to for so many years and to have her sit on my podcast. It's like no, my podcast is just a small little podcast. I don't reach like hundreds of thousands of people like, but getting past that and just saying you know, just just putting yourself out there, we all deal with it, it definitely is something that I am learning to overcome. Also, and you, I did get to I haven't finished your series, your webinar that you did about it.
Speaker 1:I started to listen and I'm like I have to sit and take notes with it. I was listening on a walk, so I got to go back and finish listening for that. But I want to end on a couple of fun questions. You've brought so much knowledge and I can sit here for hours with you, don, but I want to honor your time. But at the end of every podcast I ask every guest a couple of fun questions. So the first one is what is something that brings you joy?
Speaker 2:So for me, what brings me joy? It will sunrise for sunset, watching it and connecting it with friends, to all sort of taking it in. But just I'm just those goofy people that bought the outdoors and when the sky turns orange and red and yellow and purple and all of that, I don't listen to conversation anymore. I'm just caught up in the joy of the sunrise or the sunset.
Speaker 1:I love it that sunsets is definitely on my list of things that bring me joy also. Now, besides worship music, I want to know what is like that one song or maybe even an artist on your playlist that, just when you listen to it, just can get you out of a funk.
Speaker 2:This is going to sound fun. It's going to sound. It goes back to my child. Okay, so I was a kid in seventies. Oh, music back then. John Denver was a big deal back in those days and he's got a song called Rocky Mountain High. I hear that song, I just get happy and so, yeah, I'd sound so goofy, but it's true.
Speaker 1:I love it. You know we were okay. John Denver, we were in. He's from Colorado, right, is he from Colorado?
Speaker 2:I don't know if he's originally from there. I'm not sure if he's originally from there, but he made it sound like it. I mean he changed his last name to be Denver. I don't think that's his real last name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we were. I was in Denver just this last September and we went to the Red Rock amphitheater there and they have like a whole like museum of him there it was. It was pretty cool.
Speaker 2:That's hilarious yeah.
Speaker 1:It was true, and they like they have like a bunch of famous people that were from the Colorado, but he was a whole like hall in the, in the little Red Rock museum that they had, and it was pretty cool. I was like, oh yeah, I know who John Denver is. That's pretty cool. Once I heard his music, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that song. But yeah, you'll have to go to the Red Rock Theater. You'd love it if you, if you're big on John Denver, I'll have to do that. Yes, now, besides the Bible, of course, what is one book.
Speaker 1:Now, you have recommended so many books to me, so this one. I know it's going to be hard for you to just pick one, but what would be one book for you to recommend the listeners?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm torn between two and so Give both the one. Let me just. Okay, I'm going to give both. So I like, I love true stories, and so the boys in the boat that was recently just made into a movie, but the book the Boys in the Boat it's probably the best book I've ever read. The story and the leadership principles coming out of that, and you would think a book on rowing would be boring. It was not. It was phenomenal. So that's one. The other one is Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scasero. That book rocked my world in 2016 in such a good way that if you haven't read it, I would definitely put it on your list.
Speaker 1:I have it, I have the emotionally that one, the one that you just said, mostly Healthy Spirituality, yep. I have that one on my shelf. It literally is hope. The plan is for it to be read this year. Put it that way, that's awesome Now other book that you shared. Would you recommend that as a? Would that be a good audible listen?
Speaker 2:Yes, oh my gosh, Because I've it's also. I've done both I read the book and then I went back and listened to it right before the movie came out. Just to reflect my mind. Very easy to listen to.
Speaker 1:Okay, I, because you know there's certain books that you you need to read because you got to highlight and take all the notes you know. And then there's some that you know it's like hey, this makes a good audible. That one sounds like it might be a good audible, so I'll have to download that one. And then, lastly, can you just share with the listeners where they can follow you and any exciting coaching experiences that you have coming up?
Speaker 2:Sure, so I've got on on Instagram. I am at run Don Jax, so you can follow me there and I also. So my business is called this way faring life and there is on Facebook. There is a page for so that. But I'm going to build out but you can find it on Facebook, but you can also find this this way faring lifenet. You'll find my website. And then I've got a podcast, in fact, today's Tuesday, so you know, I don't know what day actually this is being aired, but my podcast drops on Tuesdays, and so they can find me there as well. And then I have different things that I'm going to be doing and I am doing. So I've got a 21 day challenge that probably already be going by the time this is out, but I've got opportunities for canyoneering in May. I'm working on putting together a women's backpacking group with coaching this spring summer as well. So lots of fun things to look into that are that are coming up here in the future.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited and I have a goal to join one of those backpacking trips.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, I don't know I'm like I'm, I'm there, haven't done that yet, so it'll be interesting, but I would love, love, love that opportunity. But, don, thank you so so much. I am so just humbled by your yes and, like I said before, you have impacted my life in so many ways. I am 22 years now into ministry. Really. Partly I have to give you thanks and honor for that, because if I didn't have a woman like you that I can look up to and that mentored me that kind of you know, coach me along the way and straighten me up when I needed to be straightened up and called me out when I needed to be called out, I would not have sustained 22 years. So thank you so much for coaching me, mentoring me and just being an example of what a true godly woman in ministry looks like. So I am indebted to you dearly and I love you so much Well, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I'm honored.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to another episode of your joyful order podcast and make sure to go out and chase joy.