Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
Ever wish you had your own personal cheerleader or coach in your ear, whispering encouraging words? Telling you how to kick butt in life, plus showing you how to get there? That’s exactly what you’ll get when you tune into Your Joyful Order Podcast. Each week you’ll get a mixture of preaching and teaching from your host Leslie Martinez who is a Certified Life Coach, Business Owner, Wife and Mom. Listen along for some entertaining real talk about life, business and relationships. Leslie wants to help you to reach your goals and motivate you to live out your God given purpose, by bringing you insightful knowledge, resources and sharing some tips and tricks to take action. No topic is off the table here, just know that faith will always be the foundation of our conversations and an occasional kick in the butt might come in the most loving way! Get ready to take your life to the next level and learn how to chase joy!
Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
#84-Overcoming Doubts: Building Faith Resilience & Finding Answers with Dr. Jerek Petrous
Ever wondered how faith and reason can coexist harmoniously? Join us as we journey with Dr. Jerek Petros, a distinguished orthodontist and fervent Christian apologist, who shares his transformative path to Christianity and his mission to defend the faith. Dr. Jerek's insights, rooted in the ancient Greek concept of "apologia", offer a compelling case for the truth of Christianity, making apologetics accessible even to those initially hesitant, like myself.
Explore the profound impact of apologetics on personal faith, not merely as a tool for conversion but as a means to deepen understanding and resilience. Discover how grappling with the reasons behind our beliefs can fortify our confidence, offer stability in times of doubt, and enrich our comprehension of the Bible. We tackle common obstacles like apathy, intellectual reasoning, and emotional barriers, providing strategies to overcome self-doubt and reinforce trust in God's truth.
Through heartfelt discussions, we examine the coexistence of God and evil, the role of free will, and the importance of expressing emotions in our relationship with God. With personal stories and practical advice, this episode underscores the value of a supportive community and open dialogue in nurturing a resilient and authentic faith. Join us for an episode filled with wisdom, empathy, and encouragement for believers navigating their faith journeys.
Want to take Dr. Jerek's online Apologetics Course? Check out the church website and social media page to see when the next session will launch
IG: @tfh_oc
Website: https://www.tfhoc.org/
Follow Dr. Jerek on IG: @jerekpetrous
Recommended Book: On Guard- Defending Your Faith with Reason and Precision by Wiliam Lane Craig (make sure to get the study guide also)
Connect with Leslie:
Follow on IG: @yourjoyfulorderstyle
Website: https://www.yourjoyfulorder.com/
Email: lmartinez@yourjoyfulorder.com
to schedule- Speaking Events, Interviews or Life Coaching Sessions
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Listen to this Episode on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsXoAYIM2mfclNtYiaOzIUw
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https://a.co/d/09Djvaw
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Hey everyone, I'm Leslie Martinez and you're listening to your Joyful Order podcast. Each week I will bring you joyful stories that will motivate and inspire you and, at the same time, bring order to your everyday life. Let's just say the show will be a mixture of preaching and teaching, with a kick of motivation. From your girl here. Welcome to your Joyful Order podcast. From your girl here. Welcome to your Joyful Order podcast. Welcome to another episode of your Joyful Order podcast. Today.
Speaker 1:I am so excited and honored to have another special guest. Now, the special guest he's someone that you guys might be actually pleasantly surprised of the information that he's going to share today, because not only is my next guest an amazing doctor by day, but he also is an apologist that is here to share and give us wisdom and knowledge on what apologetics is. So I want to introduce you to Dr Jarek Petros. Dr Jarek is a dedicated orthodontist committed to creating beautiful smiles. Beyond his dental practice, he is a passionate Christian apologist, with a master's in Christian apologetics from Biola University. Dr Jarek is driven to equip believers with a deeper understanding of their faith. He shares his insights through speaking engagements at dental and medical schools, as well as in churches nationwide. Welcome to the podcast, dr Jarek.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Leslie. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:Now I want to share with the audience. Dr Jarek and I. We attend the same church, even though he's in Detroit. We are here in Southern California, but we do both attend the Father's House in Orange County, and I was privileged to have taken one of his apologetics courses this last spring, which is what brought me to have this conversation with Dr Jarek today and bring him onto the podcast. Dr Jarek, first I want you to tell us how you got into this field of apologetics and then also if you can tell the listeners what apologetics is.
Speaker 2:I love it. Those are great questions, ones I love talking about, leslie. So, as you just said, apologetics is a huge passion of mine, something that I love spreading the news of, because I really truly believe that is the ability to change lives. But, as you said, I'm not in full-time ministry. I do have a master's degree in apologetics, but that's not what I do full-time, it's just a passion project.
Speaker 2:Because for me in my story, I became a Christian in my mid-20s and it was the greatest thing that had ever happened to me. I was wandering through life, addicted to performance, success, image, and it was aimless and at times depressing, until Jesus changed everything for me. But after my conversion I knew without a shadow of a doubt that God was real and that Jesus died for my sins, giving me a beautiful relationship with him. But the idea of sharing my faith as a chronic people pleaser was terrifying. Practically everybody who knew me at the time, other than the church that I was attending, were non-believers and highly educated non-Christians at that Dentists, physicians, lawyers and the idea of me sharing my faith with them was terrifying, because if they had asked me a question, I have no idea how to answer. At the same time, though I desperately wanted everybody I knew to know this Jesus who completely changed my life. So the question is what do you do with that? Well, I started watching YouTube videos anything I could get my hands on of videos of experts defending the faith, and I was awestruck. I couldn't stop watching them Guys like William Lane, craig, frank Turek, greg Kokel. They started to give me confidence that Christianity isn't just true for me, but it's true for everybody objectively, whether you choose to accept or reject that truth. And so that's what got me down the rabbit hole of apologetics learning and growing, reading books, watching YouTube videos, and eventually led to me going to Biola University.
Speaker 2:So what is apologetics? You hear that word sometimes. It's kind of a weird word. It doesn't really make sense in English. Really, it comes from the Greek word apologia and that just means a defense in a court of law, when you're defending in court something. And it comes from 1 Peter 3.15, right out of scripture, which says Always be prepared to give a defense for anyone who asks you to givea reason for the hope that you have. Do this with gentleness and respect. That word defense always be prepared to give a defense in the greek is apologia, and so, basically, apologetics is just making a case for the truth of the christ faith, defending the truth of Christianity.
Speaker 1:I love it. Now I'm going to be totally honest with you, dr Jarek, and I think I shared this in the class that I took from you. I had always been intimidated by apologetics, and part of that is because I know that it is very philosophical as well, and I thought that I was intellectual enough in college to take a philosophy class and I withdrew from that course like after three weeks because I saw not just the reading but like the overall you know content of what the course was going to take and I was just like, ah, yeah, I don't think this is for me. So I remember withdrawing from my philosophy class. So any time that I would see at church like the topic of apologetics come up, I was very intimidated by it.
Speaker 1:And taking your course, I actually felt a nudge. I think you offered the course like one time before the semester before, and I was like no, I don't think I'm going to do it, I don't think I'm going to do it, and I had a tug like on my heart. So then when it came up again, I was like, okay, I have no excuses, it's time, and I took it and I have been going down this rabbit trail now of learning all things about apologetics. I'm even reading a book right now that you recommended. That I will say has been very challenging. So I can see how apologetics is so important to the topic of strengthening your faith and that's why I wanted to have you on. So can you just share why apologetics is such an important part to help people to strengthen their faith?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question and first of all, leslie, it was awesome having you in that class, because what you just said it was that it's intimidating, that's out of your comfort zone is a very, very common response by Christians. And here's the thing is that philosophy is just a small fraction of apologetics, and the idea, the reason for apologetics comes out of all throughout the new testament, where the bible tells us to respond, to defend, to persuade, to refute. We see this in colossians 4, philippians 1 and acts 18. In fact, the word that most frequently used in acts to describe conversion is persuaded, and we know that we're commanded to love the Lord with all of our heart, soul and mind. So this is, yes, it can be a passion for some people, some people are more interested in it, but I think, to some degree, if we call ourselves Christians, then we should be equipping ourselves in some way in order to be able to share or persuade or to talk about why we believe what we believe. So I really, truly believe that if we read the New Testament, we're going to in some way shape or form that it applies to all of us.
Speaker 2:But it is intimidating to think about defending your faith, because we always think about it in terms of a hostile conversation or an argument, and it doesn't have to be that way, and a lot of times the misconception is that apologetics is there for us to convert non-believers, to have discussions or arguments with skeptics or atheists and sure, that can be a small portion of apologetics for those that are called to it. But I really, truly believe that apologetics can help us more importantly for our own faith. Learning what we believe and why it's true helps to increase our confidence, helps increase our boldness, helps us stay grounded in times of doubt, struggle or suffering. And it breaks my heart, leslie. I hear stories of people walking away from their faith. Get it because they were challenged by an intelligent atheist or a skeptic at work or in their family, or after they experience an awful tragedy, and just walk away and faith and don't get me wrong hard emotions are so important. I love getting emotional or tearing up during worship.
Speaker 2:But if that's all there is. If it's just a good feeling that you have when you walk into church, all it might take is one tragedy for all that to be wiped away when that feeling goes away. We need a foundation and apologetics. Learning what we believe and why it's true can help you and I stand strong during times of doubt, struggle or suffering.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good, and I want to emphasize one of the things that you said about apologetics isn't solely about defending your faith. I have been a believer for a lot of years. I don't want to do the math right now, but since I was 13 years old I fully gave my life to the Lord and since then I haven't never had to defend my faith with someone and I've never had to question or I've never had my faith questioned. I, in taking your, your class that was something that I thought about is like have I ever been in a situation where I had to, like sit down and show facts and say look at, the Bible says you know this about? Like almost arguing and I think in a? In a sense, that was kind of how I used to think of apologetics. It's like, oh, that's to convert atheists or something like I. You know I don't need to go there. But no, what you said about how important it is to strengthening your faith, I will tell you that, since taking your course and reading the book that you the supplemental book on guard that you had recommended, which I will put in the show notes for the listeners Um, I reading the Bible now, it is like a whole new game, derek. A whole new game.
Speaker 1:My insight to what God's word is telling me is just like I can't even explain it. It has allowed me to go to the next level with my faith and even though I thought like I'm here, I'm right, here with God, I'm serving him, I'm spreading his word, I'm being a faithful servant, just when you don't think you can go deeper with God, you go deeper with God. Understanding this and it has nothing to do with me defending my faith. I think, if anything, it teaches you how to defend your faith against yourself, if that makes any sense. Right, like we have those doubts of ourselves, of what God wants to do in us a lot of times and what I have been learning and reading and being able to go more in debt, I am able to come back, like when I have those self-doubt thoughts in my head of like no, god doesn't want to do that, like I'm nothing there. You know all of these things that the enemy feeds into our mind.
Speaker 1:It has allowed me to build a stronger foundation to where, like, those seep into my brain for like one or two seconds and I'm like, nope, because God's word says this, god has done this. God has defeated the grave. God has rose, you know, from the dead. I just remind myself of that. But I do see where there can be some like roadblocks for people that you can think you know what? There is no God, because if there was a God he wouldn't have allowed this evil in the world, he wouldn't allow, you know, my loved one to pass away. So can you just kind of share like what are some common roadblocks that you see that Christians might have that can hold them back from having a true relationship with Christ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean just going back to what you said just to reiterate about how learning apologetics, learning why the Bible is true, learning the evidence we have for our faith, yes, it can be used to win non-believers over, and it has. But again, like you said, it's to help strengthen what we believe, to give us more confidence that what we believe is true. It's not just a feeling. The feeling is good, but it's not just a feeling. It's actually true, whether we feel anything or not, and that gives us like a safety net to fall back on, a foundation to build our lives on that. What we believe is actually true, that Jesus actually rose from the dead. It actually happened in history. Like that God created the universe at a point in time in the finite past. So there's a lot of evidence to back up what we believe, to give us confidence in those times of struggle. But you asked a really good question.
Speaker 2:What are some common roadblocks that might hold someone back from having a relationship with Jesus? And I think there's really three main roadblocks that hold someone back, someone who says I don't want that in my life, I don't want Jesus, I don't want your Christianity. There's three roadblocks and I'll just say them right here. There's apathy reasons and causes. So almost always, even though sometimes it might be more than one of those three, oftentimes there's one primary one and there are reasons for saying no to Jesus in one of those three buckets. So apathy or indifference is the mentality that, oh, I don't care, I prefer to live in the moment. I don't want to go there, I'm not interested, I'm not against it, I'm just not interested. It's just like I don't need to go there. I'm not interested, I'm not against it, I'm just not interested. It's just like I don't need that in my life. And, to be honest, that was me for a big part of my life. You know, I became a believer at age 24. And before that, you know, I was very indifferent, just maybe going to God in prayer every once in a while to ask him to give me what I wanted, but no relationship or understanding of who he is. I think a lot of people fall into that bucket until something happens.
Speaker 2:The second bucket is reasons, and this is intellectual. This is for someone who thinks the fundamental beliefs about the faith are wrong. These people believe that the evidence is insufficient. Perhaps they believe the Bible isn't historical and that's why they can't accept the words of Jesus, or that there's no evidence for his resurrection. Perhaps these someone who has a reason might say that God can't exist because of how much evil there is in the world. These are all intellectual obstacles for the people who have reasons as their primary roadblock.
Speaker 2:And then the third one is causes. Causes are psychological, they're social or they're emotional, and these can be tricky. The vast majority of people who reject Christianity outright is because of a cause. Evidence will not move this person at all. An example could be social conditioning being raised in a community where being Christian equals being stupid. It could be reaction formation being raised by over-the-top legalistic parents, by the way, which are a large percentage of atheists, come from very legalist, like hyper extreme legalistic backgrounds, and then they have a reaction against christianity. It could be church hurt. You know, sadly that exists. When people are hurt in the church, uh, under the roof of a church, uh, there's a lot of different causes that might hold someone back.
Speaker 2:So I think, as as we're witnessing people we love, we don't have to be you know, bible answer man. We don't have to be some expert, but a good starting place is just to be curious and figure out which of those three they fall into. Is it apathy, is it reasons or is it causes? And I can say right now that the vast majority it's causes or apathy. Very few people fall into the reasons bucket.
Speaker 2:So the next question maybe is what do you do with each of those three buckets? Well, with apathy, you can't shake someone into the kingdom. You can't grab them and shake them and say what why do you not want Jesus? You just got to pray for them and love them. And with causes, you do ministry, you love on them, you bless them, you listen to them, you be their friends with no strings attached, and you wait for the opportunity to share the gospel or to share your faith or your testimony. And then reasons, which is by far the smallest bucket. That's when you do apologetics and we can get into trouble sometimes when someone who is angry at God or has severe church hurt that's unaddressed, we start giving them reasons, intellectual reasons or evidence. Doing apologetics with those people can sometimes even be harmful. So we kind of have to figure out who we're speaking to and which of these three they identify with to really be successful.
Speaker 1:This is so key right here, so key, I hope the listeners, I hope you wrote this down. I wrote it down. I'm taking crazy notes right now, but I've been in ministry for 23 years like actually serving If I wasn't on staff and full-time ministry. I have been part of a church doing ministry for 23 years and I can tell you in my 23 years that I have come across people that are more in the causes than anything else and, like I said, I've never, I've never come across someone that I had to give reasons to like, prove evidence to which is what I always thought apologetics was for. And there there have been some cases where there have been people that of the apathy side, it's just like, ah, that whole church stuff isn't for me. You know, I don't buy into that type of stuff. And those are the people that you know you, you can't, you can't sell it, so to say, like you, you just, you just got to pray with them and be like oh, I got you, you know, I, I respect and you just pray for them, the causes, that's where the ministry is. Those are the people that are coming to church. They've, you know, they know they've dealt with a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:You brought up the fact of church hurt.
Speaker 1:I have seen that more times than I'd like to, especially having worked in a church for so long.
Speaker 1:It's hard to see that church hurt and still encouraging people that to go to church after they've been hurt by a church, that's very hard to have those conversations been hurt by a church, that's very hard to have those conversations.
Speaker 1:And a lot of physical or you had mentioned psychological, emotional, even just social conditioning of how you said, a lot of people that are more of, and I would say, more on the religious side than that type of Christianity where it's more of religious, based where they grown up in those homes and because it is so like law, abiding deep, you know, even it comes down to, I think, cultures yes, crazy, yes, crazy things where it's like, no, I'm going to the far left because I'm just not going down that road there. So everything that you have said like bit deeper, because it's so common for people to have doubt about their faith, it's so common for people to question, like here, within these causes, like you know well, if God does exist, then why do pastors do this or say this or why does the church hurt you and what are some common doubts that you would say that people experience about their faith not just inside the church but outside the church?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question and I think, just before I answer that, one thing that you said that really resonated with me is that the good news is that there's a lot of churches out there where people are showing up, even if they're not believers yet, and they're showing up because there's something attractive about that. That was me, you know. They show up in the lobby, Like, for example, the Father's House, orange County, very, very welcoming environment in the living room when you walk in. So people show up. They might have causes in the back of their mind, they might not completely believe what's being said, but they're attracted to the people, they're attracted to the community, to the culture, to the welcome mentality. They might not get elsewhere and that's the beauty and the hope of churches is that we can be that for people and allow them to come in even if they have doubts.
Speaker 2:But to answer your question, what are some common doubts? Well, first of all, we just have to be honest and say that doubts are completely normal. It's okay to have doubts. In fact, I would argue that they're healthy and they should never bring shame. There's nothing wrong with having doubts. In fact, the only kind of unhealthy doubt I would say there is is unexpressed doubts, doubts that are held in, that are repressed, that go to the back of your mind and never come out until you hit a tragedy and then you turn from God. So if you have doubts, my hope is that you would find a community, church community, a community of believers, where expressing doubts is normalized. We're asking tough questions, is safe, because that's where true spiritual growth happens. Because I promise you, if Christianity is true, then those doubts do have answers.
Speaker 2:So common doubts for people. You know, is God good? You know, with all the suffering in the world and all the hate and all the evil, is God really good? Is he in control? And to go off of that, does God really know what's best for my life or is it better if I just keep the reins because I know what's good for me? You know those are common doubts.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, if you get a little bit more intellectual, people have doubts, like I mentioned before, is if there's so much evil in this world, how can God allow that? How can he be all good and all knowledgeable and all powerful but still have this much suffering in the world? That's a common intellectual obstacle for people. Others is just doubting the historicity. What I mean by that is is Christianity historically accurate? What I mean by that is is Christianity historically accurate? Because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then our faith is useless and it's garbage. He didn't use those exact words, but he basically, if you read 1 Corinthians 15, paul says if Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead in history, then Christianity is a waste of time and you're still stuck with your sins. That's what he says. So a lot of people will question is Christianity historically accurate? Can we trust the Bible? Those are, I think, the big ones. Podcast listeners, please know that having doubts is normal and that they should not be held on to, that they should be discussed.
Speaker 1:Now, Dr Jarek, I want you to actually go a little bit deeper into this right here. So, how can we actually prove that Christianity is true or real? And I want you to give this is a very broad question, because I mean, we, we can spend like hours just sitting here Um, so, just for the sake of of this episode, uh, just maybe give, like some, you know, key takeaways from this of you know, um, how can we prove that Christianity is real and kind of, what evidence do we have that God exists? And, if you can and I know I'm asking a lot here, this is kind of like a threefold question here, but, going back, let's go back. I want you to pin those two questions here.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want us to go back how you had brought up. The fact is, like we both brought it up, there's so much evil in the world. Why does god allow evil to exist? And, looking at, do we know that christianity is true and real? What evidence do we have that god exists? Can you connect that as to also why god exists and why evil exists simultaneously?
Speaker 1:This is a broad question, I know, I know, I know, but I it's a, it's a loaded question for sure, but I want, like I want to go deep with my listeners because it's time for our listeners like and I'm I'm kind of my voice kind of raised right now, and my audience, they know that I I bring it sometimes to them where sometimes I'm like, sometimes I got to like bring you know the chancla out and patch y'all on the on the behind a little bit, because it's like it's time to get you into gear to understand this stuff and learn how to defend your faith, so that when you see the evil is going on in the world and you question God no, you shouldn't be questioning God, you should be getting on your knees. And this is where I want you to kind of tie it together for us. So again, proving that Christianity is true and real, that God exists, and how does God and evil exist simultaneously?
Speaker 2:Gotcha. Those are great questions and I think those are probably the three of the most important questions that we can ask if starting this apologetics journey. So kudos to you, leslie. I love how you bring the heat. That's why people listen in with me, one of the many reasons.
Speaker 2:So how can we prove that Christianity is true? Well, I think we have to be careful starting with that question, because we have to really look at what does it mean? What do you mean by prove? That's the first question I always ask when people ask me that what do you mean by proof? Because a lot of times in people's heads when they think about proof, they're thinking about absolute proof. Absolute proof is proof that's so good that it's impossible to even doubt. And the truth is, is that that's an unrealistic level of proof? That expectation, that burden is not realistic because the only thing we can prove at all with absolute certainty is that one plus one equals two, basic arithmetic Like if absolute.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying the legal system is perfect, by the way, but I'm just saying that's what the basics of the legal system. If absolute proof was required to convict someone of a crime, the legal system would no longer function because it would never happen. I can't even prove to you what I ate for breakfast with absolute certainty. I can give you good evidence, but I can't prove that. I can't even prove to you with absolute certainty that the world is older than 10 minutes. I know that sounds insane, but there's very, very little you can prove with absolute certainty. So in the legal system criminal cases like someone being tried for murder the standard is what's called beyond a reasonable doubt and in civil cases it's what's called a preponderance of evidence. It's less evidence for civil cases than criminal cases, and then even less than that would be like for an arrest and that would require a probable cause.
Speaker 2:So Christianity, just like in science, in law, in history, anything where we're trying to go after truth, we follow the evidence. When we believe things are true, we do so because we trust the evidence, generally speaking and atheists love to talk about how Christians are ignorant, that we're stupid, that we're irrational, that we have blind faith, but blind faith is irrational. We don't have blind faith as Christians. If you take just one thing away from this podcast, please know that we don't, as Christians, have blind faith. We have objective evidence on our side. So another question that's common is so I guess the takeaway from that is we have to be careful about what we mean by proof. We don't mean absolute certainty, because if someone asks you to prove Christianity with absolute certainty, it's just not realistic and they can't do that with anything that they believe. So the next question is evidence for Christianity, that God exists, that Jesus is who he said he was.
Speaker 2:Well, when people ask me why I'm a Christian, I say for two reasons. For one is what? My personal testimony, because I met Jesus and he radically transformed my heart. This is subjective, but it's so powerful. There's nothing, there's no greater evidence for me than my testimony. That's the number one and that's all. I need to be honest with you. But there is another reason I'm a Christian. That's because there's excellent objective evidence that Christianity is true.
Speaker 2:This kind of wigs people out sometimes because they're like well, what do you mean? That's just your preference. You know, I prefer, you know Hinduism, or I prefer Judaism or I prefer Islam. Well, you know, just like in science, we don't prefer things, we follow the science because of the evidence behind it. And in history, we don't just believe whatever we want, we follow the evidence. It's the same thing with Christianity we follow the evidence and for a lot of us, the only evidence we follow is our testimony and that is enough.
Speaker 2:But there is evidence beyond that, in the realm of history and philosophy and science that can help back up that our beliefs and our Christian beliefs are actually true. Anything that disagrees with that is false and that's what truth is. So, again, all we need is our testimony, but there is actual objective evidence. So I know I've been kind of going in circles here I haven't even answered the second question yet, but it's really important that we walk away knowing that proof is. You have to be careful how you define it, and we have two reasons to be that we're Christians. One is our testimony and two is the objective evidence. So what is some of that objective evidence and please cut me off if I'm rambling here, but objective evidence. There's a whole list of arguments that can be used History, following the evidence in history, following the evidence in philosophy, following the evidence in science.
Speaker 2:Three of my favorite evidences, three that I talk about in the class that I lead. Number one is something called the cosmological argument, the argument from the creation of the universe. And the truth is, is that our universe, all the scientific evidence is very powerful, that our universe is not infinite, that it has not existed. You know for eternity that it had a single point in the finite past where the universe was created, where it came into being, or science would call it the Big Bang. The Big Bang happened, but behind that question lies an assumption.
Speaker 2:In that question that is bagged is well, what caused the Big Bang? Because whatever begins to exist has a cause, and the universe began to exist. We call that the Big Bang. Therefore, the universe has a cause and the universe began to exist. We call that the Big Bang. Therefore, the universe has a cause, and that cause can't be matter, can't be in time. It has to be outside of matter and outside of time and infinitely powerful. And the more we describe what that cause could look like, the more we describe the God of the Bible. So that's one argument that we don't have nearly enough time to delve into further, but it's called the cosmological argument, the big bang.
Speaker 1:The big bang needs a big bang that's, that's so good, and and again, like you said, I mean you can go deep into that now. Can in kind of explaining is is Christianity true or real? Does God exist? You just, I mean, you just scraped the surface of to by and how.
Speaker 1:Now going back to this whole, how does God and evil exist at the same time? Oh yeah, that's true. Yes, that's right of you know. Why do good things happen? Or why do bad things happen to good people? How can God allow evil to exist? And I think that this is something that a lot of people battle with because of just the challenges or the struggles that they endure in their own personal life. Right, you know, you might think like why does God allow disease to happen? Why can't God heal my loved one the way he healed the people in the Bible? So many different deep questions that those are things that I don't know how to answer. I had a friend recently. She called me frantically crying and asking me to pray for a dear friend of hers that was basically murdered in a road rage incident on the freeway, and I will never forget her crying me and saying I don't understand how a good God could let this happen to my friend.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I didn't know what to say, derek I I. All I did was cry with her and say I don't know why either, but all I can tell you is that God is just, he's still good. I don't know why, I don't know. So these are the tough questions that can be asked, and I don't know if you have I'm not asking you for an answer because I don't know that there's a true answer but if you can just give us some insight into that whole, how does God, good and evil all exist together?
Speaker 2:to that whole. How does God, good and evil all exist together? Well, first of all, just on the comment with your friend, it's so heartbreaking to hear stories like that and they happen every day and I honestly think that the way you handled it was perfect because we have to be careful to give an explanation for God in specific instances specific examples I think we we have to be careful not to speak for god, because to to do that, I think, is very presumptuous, and to assume that we can answer for god.
Speaker 2:We can let god answer for god, and a lot of times the answer is not going to be found on this side of eternity. Um, what I can say is that there is a general defense. It's not irrational that God is perfectly good, all-knowing and all-powerful and there's still evil in this world. There are answers to that question, the general question, the philosophical question. Theologians would call it the free will defense. God created us in his image and so in a lot of ways we're like him not near perfect or anywhere close, but a lot of ways we're made like God, in the image and likeness of God. It says throughout scripture, especially in Genesis. And so part of being like God is having the capacity to love. That's what makes us human. Part of what makes us human is having the ability to love, and in order to love, you can't have a robot love. It's not possible for a robot to love, because a robot can't make a decision. See, love is a free will decision. So in order to love, which is a huge part of being human, we need the ability to make choices, and God gives us that ability because we're made in his image. And with the ability to make choices comes the ability to make choices that are harmful to ourselves or to others. And if God could have made us robots but would we really be human? I don't think we would. So he made us this way, knowing that it would be possible for us to make decisions.
Speaker 2:The Bible would call sin that hurts others and hurts ourselves. And so, because God gives us that freedom he loves us too much to take away that freedom that also opens up the possibility of hurt, of suffering, of evil. And we live in a world that's fallen. That is not the way it should be, and that happened ever since the fall which is described in Genesis. And so we live in a world that's broken, that's fallen, but we have courage and hope that it will be made right.
Speaker 2:That's what us, as Christians, would call heaven. And all evil and suffering that we've ever experienced in this life, as horrible as that is, god has some purpose for that. He doesn't always cause that, by the way. Sometimes it's just caused by the person doing the evil. We do know that all wrongs will be made right in heaven and that all suffering will be dwarfed into insignificance. When we think about the eternity of heaven being in heaven for trillions of years what happened during 50 years of our lives really is irrelevant Any suffering that we experience in that little time compared to the big chunk of eternity.
Speaker 1:Wow, thank you.
Speaker 1:It's a long winded answer, it is it is, and thank you no, thank you for the answer that you gave, because I think that just gives a little bit of insight for people that may have that question of I don't understand how God and evil can exist, or why does God let bad things happen to good people? And those are things I've had that question come up more than once my friend isn't the first person that has asked me that. When I've had someone come and ask me to pray and they're like I don't know why God did this. I don't know why God allowed this to happen. I don't know why God took my husband, why God took my mom, why God took my dad, and I think a lot of times in those moments, though also when you're in it, it's good to question God. I know I've been there. I've been there many times and even in just this time last year I was questioning God. My cousin passed away and I want to say, kind of unexpectedly, like he got a sudden sickness that winded up taking him away. And this is a cousin that was like a brother to me, like this is the man that walked me down the aisle and I questioned God, and even being a strong woman of faith, I still questioned like why, god, why would you take this like such a good servant to you, you know? Why did you take him at such a young age? Why would you leave, allow him to leave behind his family, his daughter, his wife, like all of this? Good questions, and I feel that and this is just me speaking, not like biblically, I should say this is just my opinion I feel that when you are able to question God, it actually builds your strength.
Speaker 1:I have seen many times that I have questioned God in that sense when bad things have happened to people that I love, or I've seen things in the world and I've gotten mad at God. You know, I'm like God. I don't understand why would you do this, like literally yelling in my car. I remember this time last year just screaming in my car, yelling and crying and saying, you know, why did you take him? And I never heard God more clear in those moments, jared, than I had when I'm on my knees like mad as hell at God. And I've had God just like almost where I could hear him audibly in those moments, and I mean those moments are for me and God of what I've I've heard, but I have felt that it has built my faith even stronger, and I don't I don't want to go back and see cause. I don't know off the top of my head right now that if there is anything in the Bible to back me up on that, Let me just say one thing.
Speaker 2:I completely agree with you, leslie. I think that too often, when people are angry with God or questioning God, they're shamed. And then so what do they do? They repress their faith or, even worse is, they turn from them. And so I think that God created us with a heart full of emotions, like in all of the emotions Jesus expressed at various times in his ministry. He was angry at times, he was sad at times, he was lonely at times, he was fearful. At times he was glad. All the emotions of the human heart. God wants in on that. So if we have our questions for God, if we're upset with him, there's nothing wrong with that. But what's wrong with it is, you know, turning from him and running in the opposite direction or shaming others for having those feelings. God wants in on those feelings, and I think a part of the healing process is bringing those feelings to God and letting him work that through with us.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that's so healthy and a huge part of the healing process. So I think you're spot on.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, thank you just for affirming that. But, like I said, I I know that in my personal walk with God that I have been in those seasons where I just question God and I shout at him, I get angry. I'll write it out sometimes in my journaling, you know, questioning like God, why, why is this happening? Why am I here? Why, why is this going on in the world? And it just has allowed my faith to grow and strengthen in those moments of what I think are weakness and processing. You know, I, I I share a lot about just a mental health altogether on the podcast also, and expressing your emotions, what you said, jesus felt every single one of those emotions and I often think that sometimes people they want to suppress those emotions towards god or they think that it's not. It it's not, you're not supposed to be angry with God, you're not supposed to question.
Speaker 2:God yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, and it is. It is a healthy way to process what you are feeling and going through and if you want to question God, you know, express your emotions. Like I said, I was angry. I was in my car. I have worship music on. I was trying to get in like a peaceful, like just process the loss that I went through, and then I just got mad. I was like no, I don't want to be here worshiping you, god right now. Why should I allow myself to get in this place? Like why, god, why, why, why? And I was just like lashing out angry yeah, angry and filling the emotions. And then god just came so audible to me and spoke to me and I was just like taken back, like wow that's what relationship is like, right?
Speaker 2:this isn't just all the positive feelings, I mean, we can list our best friends and we can think of times where we've gotten fights with them. But we, when we. What happens after that is you work it through and you grow stronger with that person. Exactly that's relationship. Exactly god isn't any. He isn't, um, you know, uh, an anti-depression medication like he. He doesn't he. He isn't there to just solve our problems. He's there to do relationship with us and that's and that's. It goes with any human relationship. It's okay to have negative. When we consider negative emotions, I don't think there is such a thing as a negative emotion. I think I mean, if we take our emotions too far, they can become sinful. If we don't take them to the one who gave them to us, it can be unhealthy repressing them, but I think God has given us emotions to express them in relationship.
Speaker 1:Yes, so good. Oh geez, jeric, I can sit here and talk to you forever about this and even just this topic of emotions now that we're getting into. I'm like getting fired up here, but for the sake of time.
Speaker 1:I just I want us to start wrapping up here. We've gone I've already gone way past what I typically do, but our conversation is just so good. Now, just to kind of wrap up, I actually want to have you share just some practical steps that listeners can do to begin kind of seeking ways to deepen their faith and if there's any resources, because I'm sure if the listeners are, you know, walking away with anything, I'm sure they have a page full of notes, like I have right here, but I want them to leave having practical resources and tips that can help them to just strengthen their faith. So what are some tools and resources that you think would help them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's important, just as a general answer, that we engage God with our hearts and with our minds, because that is the healthiest kind of faith, the heart-mind connection. And so how do we engage God with our hearts? Well, we do it through worship, we do it through community, we do it through serving, we do it through spending time in his word on a regular basis and letting it wash over us. But how do we engage with God with our minds? Well, you know, we can study, read books, we can listen to podcasts like this one, we can go there with God and do research on our doubts and get the internet at our fingertips. There's so many good resources out there. So the general answer engage with God with our heart and our mind, because he wants both. But some practical steps listeners can take to strengthen their faith and overcome these doubts is just to learn. You know, just like, how we go to the gym to try to stay healthy. You know we go to church to have community, to try to stay healthy. You know we go to church to have community. I think it's a good practice to maybe spend. Just make a half an hour of your week on a Sunday afternoon Like I'm going to spend time reading a book on apologetics or I'm going to read a book that challenges me intellectually to go deeper with God, and so it could be an apologetic learning tool.
Speaker 2:One of my favorites that Leslie's reading right now is On Guard by William Lane Craig. It's not an easy read but it is a good beginner level higher beginner level introduction into apologetics. Another great one is I Don't have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler. I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler. I Don't have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Those are great starting points. Cs Lewis, he just. I can just sit and listen and read his book, any one of his books, with a triple shot of espresso in front of you know, my backyard, a fireplace, and I'm just doing well. So I think we have to find ways to challenge ourselves intellectually in our faith walk.
Speaker 1:And that could be reading, listening to podcasts, listening to sermons, those kinds of things. So good, so good All the things I tell my listeners too. And let me touch back on the um on guard book that I'm reading. I I was actually I had shared with you, before we even hit record, that I had took my son to the dentist today and, as he was getting his dental checkup, I was reading chapter nine of on guard, sitting there taking notes and reading it, and I will. I will be honest for the listeners. If you want to go deep, this book is great and it's been a challenge for me, I will. I'm not going to lie, it's been a challenge for me, but I'm going, I'm learning, I'm highlighting, I'm looking up terms and kind of reading through things. Once and twice I'm like, wait, did I read that right? How am I understanding this? So this book is taking me much longer to get through because I'm really kind of processing a lot of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is good.
Speaker 1:But it has definitely, definitely helped me in strengthening my faith, to allow me just to go deeper, and I will say I have not been challenged in a really long time with the book and this book. It's messed me up in a good way. So thank you, dr Jarek, for that recommendation. Now, as we wrap up, there's a couple of fun questions that I always ask my audience, so you actually already answered. One of them is some book recommendations, but here's one just about you. So what are things that Dr Jarek likes to do that brings you joy?
Speaker 2:Ooh, that's a good one. Oh, man, I'd say I love traveling and my wife does too. So we, we love exploring the world together, experience different cultures, trying out new restaurants. I hate to say this, but this is kind of a ridiculous answer. But football brings me a lot of joy watching my Detroit Lions who are going to the Cinco Bowl this year, hopefully. But on a more serious level, outside of those two, which are just as real, I think just seeing people connect the dots and seeing light bulbs go off when we talk about evidence for our faith and what we believe and why, that brings me a lot of joy, and my prayer is that everyone who's listening that there were at least a few light bulbs that went off during this podcast.
Speaker 1:I love it. Okay, you got like so insightful of a great thing and I'm stuck on that. You're a football fan too, because I'm a big football fan and that's something that brings me joy. Okay, who's your team? That's the question. Okay, but you're, you're going to be like I can't believe that this girl loves Jesus and loves the Raiders, because that's my team.
Speaker 1:All right, and we're hoping that they do some good things. I mean, I grew up watching the Raiders when they were here in LA, so they've just always been my team, you know, and I I love football. My son, he well, he's in college now but he played football since he could pick up a ball. And we actually work very closely with our local high school football team. We do their like photography and video and stuff, so we are sidelined every game and so much joy that it brings. We are as we're recording this. We are like a week out from the start of football season and I can't wait. It's the best time of the year yes, it is.
Speaker 2:And and week one, the la rams. I know you're not an LA Rams fan, but they're taking on our Detroit Lions Sunday night football.
Speaker 1:And I will be cheering for the Detroit Lions, not the LA Rams, even though I'm a person I will say they were my team last year, dr Jarek.
Speaker 1:They were the team that I was hoping to make it, cause it's just that, like you know, underdog story that you just want to see them win. I can't wait to see them win, yes, and we can talk about all day long. But anyhow, dr Jarek, thank you for your time, thank you for your wisdom, thank you for just what you brought to the audience. I know that so many listeners are going to be impacted by what you share today, so I just want to honor you and thank you for just sharing your love and your passion, and for the listeners yes, thank you For the listeners all of the notes. We will have links to the books and the resources that Dr Jarek shared, and actually I should have asked this beforehand. Dr Jarek, will you be offering your apologetics course again in the fall?
Speaker 2:I believe. So. I haven't talked yet with the leadership at CFHOC, so we haven't finalized anything yet, but my guess is that we will.
Speaker 1:Okay, well then, perfect. So I will also, by the time this comes out, if your course is out there, I will drop a link. If not, I will drop a link to TFHOC. That way they can check in and look when our community groups are posted and just look for the exact name of the course. It's Defending your Faith. Yes, okay, perfect. I was going to say that I was like wait, defending your Faith course. And when the course does come out, I definitely will be sharing it on my social media too. So again, dr Jarek, thank you, and to the listeners, thank you for listening to another episode of your Joyful Order podcast. Until next time, keep chasing joy.