Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
Ever wish you had your own personal cheerleader or coach in your ear, whispering encouraging words? Telling you how to kick butt in life, plus showing you how to get there? That’s exactly what you’ll get when you tune into Your Joyful Order Podcast. Each week you’ll get a mixture of preaching and teaching from your host Leslie Martinez who is a Certified Life Coach, Business Owner, Wife and Mom. Listen along for some entertaining real talk about life, business and relationships. Leslie wants to help you to reach your goals and motivate you to live out your God given purpose, by bringing you insightful knowledge, resources and sharing some tips and tricks to take action. No topic is off the table here, just know that faith will always be the foundation of our conversations and an occasional kick in the butt might come in the most loving way! Get ready to take your life to the next level and learn how to chase joy!
Your Joyful Order With Leslie Martinez
#91-Joyful Productivity: Aligning Goals with God's Plan with guest Bronwyn Lea
Join us for a reflective journey as we sit down with the insightful Bronwyn Lea, a pastor, leadership coach, and editor of Propel Women. Offering a fresh perspective on balancing personal ambitions with spiritual intentions, Bronwyn helps us unpack the complexities of mixed motives and imposter syndrome. Together, we navigate the delicate art of recognizing our natural gifts and passions, understanding how these can guide us towards a fulfilling calling, with the support of trusted relationships.
As we explore the challenges of clinging too tightly to our ambitions, we emphasize the importance of releasing control and trusting in God's wisdom. We delve into the anxiety and spiritual imposter syndrome that can accompany such journeys, reminding listeners of the value in focusing on character development over achievements. Highlighting the joy of loving others and finding worth in everyday tasks, we discuss how cultivating a Jesus-like character is essential to fulfilling God's purpose.
Connect with Bronwyn:
IG: https://www.instagram.com/bronwyn_lea/
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Connect with Leslie:
Follow on IG: @yourjoyfulorderstyle
Website: https://www.yourjoyfulorder.com/
Email: lmartinez@yourjoyfulorder.com
to schedule- Speaking Events, Interviews or Life Coaching Sessions
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Listen to this Episode on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsXoAYIM2mfclNtYiaOzIUw
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Hey friends, thank you for tuning in to yet another episode of your Joyful Order podcast. Today I am so delighted and honored to welcome my wonderful, wonderful friend and coach, bronwyn Lee, a pastor, leadership coach and editor of Propel Women. She is originally from South Africa, so if you hear that little beautiful accent, it's her South African accent. However, bronwyn has lived here in the US for the past 20 years. She is the author of Beyond Awkward Side Hugs, which is a book beautifully navigates the importance of healthy relationships between men and women in Christian spaces. She resides in Northern California with her husband and their three teens and this I just have to add. This is a very special woman to me because she was my coach for the first part of this year as I participated in the Propel Women's Mentorship, and I have had some engaging and deep conversations with Bronwyn and I'm hoping to bring some of that today to the podcast. So welcome Bronwyn.
Speaker 2:Thanks, it's delightful to be with you and your listeners.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so happy to have you. So when we started the Pal Co-Words, I knew right away I'm like I have to ask her to be a guest on my podcast, but I had to wait till you were done being my official coach to ask you. So thank you for being here so much. Now I just want to set up our intention for this episode, because I want us.
Speaker 1:There's so many different topics that I could have talked to you about, Bronwyn, truly, truly, but one of the things that I wanted to have you on for it was for us to explore how we can pursue our goals with joy and purpose and aligning our ambitions with God's greater plan for our lives, and I know that's a very broad topic, and we're on this theme of joyful productivity for this month, and you as a coach, as a fellow coach, one of the things that I was sharing with you is we both know how to help people break goals down right.
Speaker 1:With you is we both know how to help people break goals down right. Like that's easy. That's, in a nutshell, brain science. Use a smart goal formula or, you know, whatever. However, there is something deeper a lot of times that stops us from pursuing what God puts in our heart, and sometimes we can start to seek our own selfish ambitions rather than what God's plan has for our lives. So I'd love to start by hearing your thoughts on how we can bring purpose and faith into the way that we approach productivity.
Speaker 2:That is a broad and fantastic question.
Speaker 1:We're going to go deep Bronwyn Good I am excited.
Speaker 2:Let's do all the things Okay. So I think there's two areas I would like to talk about. One of them is about the difference between hustling and taking the next faithful step. Maybe we can get to that, but long before we're figuring out how we're going to go about it, I think we have to deal with the sort of internal conversation we have with ourselves about how we set those goals that we are wanting to accomplish, and that has to do with discerning our desires, discerning our goals and then discipling our goals and desires, because mixed motives are a real thing.
Speaker 2:Imposter syndrome is a real thing thing. Imposter syndrome is a real thing, and sometimes we have this urge or this nudge or this feeling like we'd like to accomplish something, and then there's all these voices in our head Is this from God? Is this from me? Is this unholy ambition? Is this holy ambition? Is this good dreaming? Is this a career, whatever? And so there's a whole process that, I think, goes into discerning our desires. I don't think we ever are going to land up on the side of eternity doing anything with 100% pure motives. I think that a little bit of the you know human mix of God and the spirit in us and still wrestling with the flesh is something that we're just going to need to reckon with, and so I don't know that we're ever going to be able to say this is 100% God's goal and I'm just along for the ride. Like our, our desires need to meld with his in that and we need to um sort of grapple with that. But I do think that discerning, you know, lord, is this something I really care about? Why is it that I get really excited or really angry about this? Like, whatever it is, I have big feelings about how this thing is being done or not done in the world. Like that's a flag or an indicator. Like sometimes to me it's a bad thing. Like that's an indicator, right, that maybe that's connected to something that is my purpose or my calling. And then if the people around you are speaking to you and saying, hey, god has particularly gifted you in this, like you can do things and see things in the space that I can't see and do, that helps us to clarify whether this is something that's mine to do and ours to do. Sometimes, if we really care about something, we're really naturally good at something, it's hard to actually see that that's our calling because it feels so natural. And then imposter syndrome comes and says well, everybody cares about this thing and you are the least qualified person to do it. And so like the role of other people to say to us actually, not everybody can do this, not everybody cares about this, and maybe you should just be faithful and try. It is really important in helping us discern those desires.
Speaker 2:And then there's the process of discipling those desires. And I think that that's where the conversation about how we go about setting those productive, joyful goals happens, because so much of the advice out there, so much of the advice that I received in my life, really had to do about sort of self-starter hustle culture. I needed to build a plan, put it into place, figure out where I wanted to be in one month, one year, five years, 10 years time. And honestly, that was intimidating because life is full of unexpected turns and I myself am a different person every year as I'm going, you know, going by, and so we want to build a lot of flexibility into the way we envision the future and we want to disciple the fact that God is shaping our desires. So keep checking in with him and put some prayer into that growth process.
Speaker 2:And so I think one of the things that, as I have thought about productivity, that has been helpful for me to reset and this has been part of my discipling, my desires is realizing that that the wisdom of the world that says hustle to get this stuff done is very, very much focused on results, that it's results driven.
Speaker 2:I am like putting all of my energy in to accomplish a certain result, which is very stressful, and I am realizing that joyful productivity, which looks a lot more like what the Bible describes as fruit as opposed to product, has to do not with my eyes being on the results, but my results, my focus being on the growth process. And so then the question that I'm asking myself is not what is the outcome that I want to achieve it's actually much shorter on the timeline. The question I'm asking myself is what is my next faithful step in that direction? But the results are kind of yielded to God. So that's kind of been the discipleship part of the goals thing, and it has given me a lot of freedom, um, to try new things, to let things go when they, uh, don't go my way, and also to give glory to god when there is some kind of like visible success that was a lot.
Speaker 1:Where do you want to go from here, bronwyn, my good I. I was writing down like so much because you touched on so much discern and disciple. That's huge. Right there, imposter syndrome, realizing those big feelings that you were saying, like that's where, what are you passionate about, what makes you sad or what makes you angry? And knowing that our productivity, that, like you said, bible refers it to as our fruit, like what we are producing, I mean I just wrote all those down because so good, and I want to reiterate a lot of that. But I want to dive into a little bit with discernment.
Speaker 1:I think this is huge where a lot of people I myself, I know that I struggled with this. So, as you were saying, we are in such a hustle culture that we are just all about producing. You know like, oh, we just got it. You got to produce results. Right, it's all about results and I've been there before. I know what it's like as a coach. You want to see results, right. You want to see results in your clients as well. You're giving them tools and you know tips on hey, this is how you get results. Tools and you know tips on hey, this is how you get results.
Speaker 1:And I have been in the last two years and this is partly why I had joined the Propel Ministry, because I was so focused on the results that I knew that God needed to work other areas of my life. And it's very easy for me to focus on the goal and ignore what God is stirring in my spirit. You know, and I like I had to sit in a really hard ugly place to discern and kind of come to I don't want to say like a reality, but have these things that I've been pushing down surface, because God can only take me as far as I'm ready. And I think in these goals of where he was taking me, there was stuff that was like stirred up in my spirit that I had to fix and work on before he can take me to that next level. So it's like I know that God has a plan for me and that he's taking me here, but he has to prepare our hearts, he has to prepare our spirits for that.
Speaker 1:So, having the discernment to know that, hey, this is just a season that I need to sit, I need to sit and hear from God, how can you kind of speak to that in knowing when it's a like, take action kind of season or when it's a I need to sit with God kind of season. Can you just give a little bit of advice on that? I know there's not a real true answer there's not but just I don't think you're gonna like what I going to say Okay, you can always edit this out if this is not what you want to hear no.
Speaker 2:You're assuming that that's a choice that we can make, and I feel like I learned these lessons in a season where I had no choice, which was the 10 years that I was living in this country, that I could not legally work, that I was living in this country that I could not legally work and I, from the age of 30 to the age of 40, was a person with multiple graduate degrees, lots of potential, lots of energy, and I was benched for 10 years at home with babies, with a visa status that did not allow me to do anything, and I was dependent on my husband to initiate the, you know, because I was his plus one in this country and so was relying on him to have to apply for residency and things. So there was nothing that I could hustle or do to make a name for myself. I had all these things that I cared about and very little capacity to do anything. And so that question of, well, what does God want me to do? Is this just for me? That wasn't even an option. Like I sat on a couch, you know, nursing, and then a couple of years on the bathroom floor potty training children, thinking why do I have a law degree? Why did I go to seminary? What am I even doing? Sitting here, like these years feel wasted. And then the Lord saying, um, doing so much good work on me, you know, like that you had the discipline to sit is incredible. To learn these lessons, I feel like the Lord benched me because maybe I wouldn't have sat down to learn them voluntarily, like he literally took away my ability to work and to hustle and produce anything.
Speaker 2:And those were some hard years. Those were some really identity shaping years, because so much of my identity, and even my Christian identity, had to do with achieving outcomes in the world justice outcomes in the world, ministry outcomes in the world. I wanted to see people taught. I wanted to see people come to Jesus. I wanted to see people's faith formed. I wanted to write Bible studies. I wanted to see people rescued out of, you know, trafficking and abusive situations. I had lots of good, great goals and literally no ability to do them. I was sitting in my pajamas for multiple years raising small children. And what do you do with that in my pajamas, for?
Speaker 2:multiple years raising small children, and what do you do with that? Yeah, what does it look like to have goals, like when you can do nothing about it?
Speaker 1:right, what does?
Speaker 2:it look like to cultivate joy. So I had to lean very, very hard into verses like first corinthians 15. You know where he, at the end in verse 58, says you know, therefore, brothers and sisters, be steadfast, immovable, knowing that your labor is not in vain. You know like nothing we do in the Lord is in vain. I leaned hard into Colossians 4 when he speaks to slaves and says do not do your work as if your master's eye is on you, but work as unto the Lord. And I was like Lord Jesus.
Speaker 2:I have like no corporate goals, no performance review, no salary that's validating my worth no sales, like nothing. But I need to work in this task of being a neighbor and a PTA parent and a mom to children that I'm literally never going to potty train. I just I imagined my children in diapers because I sucked so badly at this part of parenting. I'm so bad at it. Then they started school and my kids go to a Spanish immersion school, couldn't even help them with homework. Just so many areas of incapacity and uselessness.
Speaker 2:And so what was God's plan for me in these 10 years? Well, his plan for me always has been to make me more, to be like Christ Jesus, and so it was a hard decades lesson for me to say Lord, what are my goals then? To be more like Jesus. If that is actually your plan for me is not about some kind of productivity. If your plan for my life is to make me more like Jesus and to take other people on the goal, what does this week look like so that I become more like Jesus? This is a hard school and I'm a slow learner, apparently because it took a whole decade.
Speaker 1:I think we all relate to that, bronwyn, because we, like you said, it's not like we have a choice, you know, taking action or sitting on the bench. And I will say that there are some things along. You know, these last few years that I will say that I was in that kind of bench season also where I was trying, trying, trying and things just weren't sticking, you know, and I was like Lord, I know that this is what you want me to do, I know that this is where you're taking me, but why isn't it sticking, like why can't I just get this right almost? And then that's where I kind of felt in my spirit, where it was just be still. It was the be still verse.
Speaker 1:You know, be still and know that I am God. That's all I just kept hearing. Like, leslie, you just need to be still with me. You need to learn to love my people, love them like Jesus, like, yes, I am calling you and elevating you to a higher level, but in order for me to get there, like my heart has to be right with with God, my spirit, and to discern God's calling on my life. It's, I think you and me can maybe relate in that we're just like driven people right and I think I will speak for myself personally, even if it's Jesus driven, I will knock people down to get to the goal you know in the most loving way, though, right bulldozes for Jesus, yeah bulldozing elbows left and right like I'm gonna knock some people down because I'm so fixated on the goal.
Speaker 1:I'm like no God called me to do this and I'm going all in doing it and I don't realize that I'm knocking people down. Jesus wouldn't knock those people down. Like it wasn't about the destination. Right, there's a whole like cheesy verse. It's like oh, life's a journey, you know, it's not about the destination. And it's like when I started reading more of God's word and understanding like the Bible and seeing Jesus, his ministry and what he did, he wasn't fixated on where he was going. He was fully present with where he was at and the people that were around him and loving them. And that's where I felt that God was. Like Leslie, you need to slow down, you need to sit, you need to be still, you need to hear and discern what I am telling you, you need to get your heart right, you need to get your spirit right, because if God is taking me to this next level to love on his people, but I'm just focused on the it and not the people that God is sending me, that I'm missing it completely. And that's where you know the conversation of is. This time like I need to learn to just sit figuring out the sitting season or when you're banned.
Speaker 1:Sometimes we're forced, like you were. You were forced. You know I wasn't necessarily forced, like I. I guess I kind of put myself there. But then there were some things that came across where I was just trying, trying and got it it again. Nope, it's not your time, it's not your time. You still got to keep working, leslie. You still got to keep, you know, doing this. And I know I know where you were at too, like I, I was in ministry when I was in the thick of potty, training my kids and stuff.
Speaker 1:And now my kids are older and I feel that I have more time, that I'm like, hey, my kids are gone, One's off to college, one's right behind him. I have the time and God's having me sit now, you know, and trying to figure that out and also kind of separating my personal ambitions from what God is calling me. And that's where I want to dig in a little bit, if you can kind of share a little bit that. How can we balance our personal ambitions with a faith-driven mindset? Like what are the signs that our goals might be varying away from what God's plan is?
Speaker 2:I think I'm less ambitious than you and I don't know if that's something that God has grown out of me because of my very long season of benchedness, or maybe that's a wiring thing I think I have. I think I'm wired a little bit more people and task than being all task in that regard. But certainly there are things I really want to accomplish in life and that I really do care about, and actually marriage has been a great disciple for me in this, because I am married to someone who has a very different process and a very different work speed to me. You know, like if I'm not, if I don't have a clear goal, there's not a lot of energy. But if there are things that I want to have done, why have we not done it already? Because the path for me is really clear? But you know, needing to navigate life with someone who's like I don't know I need to do more research about that. I'm like you don't need to do more research. You've already read the whole internet twice, but you know so like marriage is a very, very like in my face way that I think God uses. And my kids, as they're getting older and have their own calendars as well and their own budget needs Right, because, like, how much, how many resources you've gotten, both time and money, are real factors to play into. Who can pursue what goals win right.
Speaker 2:And you're playing a balancing game on all of those things, on what people have energy for, what you're able to do, and there've been a bunch of things where I have energy for them and that the Lord has said not now, not yet, not this way, not with this person. And if it's and if it's, and if it's, uh, and I have to be willing to say, okay, lord, if this is of you, I will surrender it to you in this season and I trust that you'll give it back. And sometimes I find myself like a month later saying, hey, remember that thing, and I'm like, okay, I'll surrender, take it again. And then a month later I'm like, hey, remember that thing, and the lord's like give it over. And I just kind of like surrender it again. And then sometimes a month later I'm like, hey, remember that thing, and the Lord's like give it over, and I just kind of like surrender it again. And then sometimes a year later I've been like, okay, now can I do the thing. And it's been like now you can do the thing.
Speaker 2:So there's a tempering process, I think, in realizing that the things that present as obstacles to my goals are sometimes part of the Lord's clarifying process, like there's a weight that's not a no. There's a partnership involved with your community, your spouse, the season, and we know that looking back on our lives, we will be able to see the details of how what Ephesians 1.10 says is true and how he is working all things to bring them under the headship of Christ. We will be able to see how Romans 8, 28 is true and that he has worked all things for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose. But it's very hard to project that forward. But the longer I walk with Jesus, the more track record I have in my own life of being able to look back that little distance and say, okay, well, thus far he has helped me to be patient and evaluates, like some of these goals, how might I know that I'm off track?
Speaker 2:I think that probably the quickest way for me to know that I'm on track is when my grip is really tight on a thing and I'm feeling a lot of anxiety about the outcomes.
Speaker 2:That is usually the flag to me that I've kicked into some kind of hustle mentality instead of trusting in God's timing. So if I realize that in my spirit I'm white knuckling something to make certain outcomes happen, or if some friend or person in my life is gracious enough to say you are really angry or upset or disappointed about this, what is going on there? That is usually my check to say hey, lord, did I take this idea idea which I do believe was birthed with you and from you and did I run ahead of your spirit like am I trying to do more than you asked me to do? Am I trying to do it faster than you asked me to do? Because I'm having anxiety here that doesn't feel like keeping in step with your spirit. So usually it's my own internal state of checking in and going oh, I am having very big feelings about something that really should just be one next faithful step with Jesus. That is my clue that my ambition is out of alignment in that space.
Speaker 1:That's so good, bronwyn, dang it so good. And okay, going back a little bit, because, like you said, you had said we're a little different in that I am very task oriented and, yes, I typically by nature am very task oriented, very know, not holding everything still here, white knuckling everything of like. You need to open up and have less control. Give me control rather than you trying to control the outcome. And I've done that.
Speaker 1:I don't want to say I'm perfect at it, I have been working. Let me say I've been working on that where I'm just like okay, god, let me open-handedly give this to you. I know you put it on my heart, but I want to open-handedly give it to you and stop holding onto it, because I've seen the results when I white knuckle it, like you said, I get angry when it doesn't go my way. It doesn't go the way that it was supposed to go. I am rushing to do something with very little intentionality because I'm just trying to get it checked off of my list. I've seen how that has happened.
Speaker 1:So there have been things that God has been putting in my heart lately where I'm taking my time. I'm like God, here it is, I'm going to take the time and I'm going to allow you to be in it. I'm going to let you be the one to walk me through this, and it's been hard. It is so hard to be there because, being a task oriented, goal driven person, I just want to like pick it up and be like, no, let me go go again. But then I'm white knuckling it again and again. God's like Leslie, be still and let me do it. And I will say that's kind of been a hard reality for both me and my husband, because my husband is, I mean, you think I'm task oriented and driven. Let's see that times 10.
Speaker 1:I'm the slow one, I'm the slow one. On his end he's like, no, I need you right here, I need you to work faster, smarter, work smarter, not harder, kind of thing, you know. So there is that strain. I will say on certain things that he's 100% behind me, like let's go for it, you know. But it's like now, now, and I'm like, no, but God's telling me to hold on, like I don't want God's telling me to wait, not hold on, god's telling me to wait. And that's hard, you know, like you were saying, sometimes God puts you in a relationship, like in your case. Your husband is like the slow one, you're the more ambitious one. It's kind of flipped on our end, but even though we both are very driven, he's like, yeah, like Energizer, bunny driven, you know.
Speaker 1:So I want to encourage our listeners here to kind of how they can approach their work and lives with a purpose driven approach in what we do. You know, and there's some people that maybe they're in a career, a job, something that they don't feel is aligning with what God's purpose was for their life, you know, and they feel that there's that yearning or calling for something more in their life, but they don't know how to trust that. What are some encouraging words that you can give those people to help them to trust where God is trying to direct them? Even you know something as big and scary as like you need to quit your job. You know, yeah, there could be a listener that just knows on their heart that they're not where they're supposed to be. But what advice can you give to those people? To not so much we're telling people to quit their jobs, but to discern what God is telling their spirit.
Speaker 2:Okay, I have two very different things to say to this.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:One of them is that I do not come from a very Pentecostal tradition. Telling me to do a thing or I just feel like the Holy Spirit is telling me has given me all kinds of anxiety and spiritual imposter syndrome, because I'm like I don't know if God is telling me to do this, I really don't know. And so James 1, 3 through 5 has been one of the verses I have returned to again and again and again and again in my life where the Lord says ask for wisdom. In my life, where the Lord says if you know, ask for wisdom, ask for wisdom and the Lord will give generously and without finding fault. If anyone lacks wisdom, he should ask and the Lord will give it. And then it says you must believe and not doubt that he's given it. And again and again I have said Lord, I am taking you at your word, I am asking you for wisdom in this. I am going to do my best to search the scriptures, I'm going to do my best to search my heart, I'm going to do my best to ask for mentors and I am going to trust that your Holy Spirit is at work in this process. That doesn't feel supernatural to me, it feels painfully natural to me. But I am believing and not doubting that when I ask you for wisdom on whether I should make this shift, whether I should apply for this program or this job or reach out to this person, I am taking you at your word that you will say yes to this request for wisdom, without finding fault with my request, without finding fault with me, and I'm believing and not doubting that you will answer that. That is so often been my story and in hindsight I can say, oh, I can see that God was leading me and the spirit was leading me. But in the moment I have very often just laid my Bible up before the Lord in prayer and said you better do what you said, because I'm asking right and I'm trusting that you said you were going to do what you were going to do.
Speaker 2:We had so many visa issues when we first arrived in the States that for a while my husband in particular was like is this all a sign that we've made a mistake? Like are all of these obstacles an indication that we chose wrong and we had regret about? Have we taken the wrong path? Do we go back? Do we start again Like real doubt as to whether we had discerned this particular calling because we came here for him to do graduate studies and you know I was along for the ride. But I was like we've tried to discern for both of us and it does not feel like it's going well, like the data suggests we have made an error.
Speaker 2:And again and again I sat down with James 1 and I was like my love, we prayed, we have asked God for wisdom. We have got to trust. We have got to trust that God answered and did not find fault with us in this process. So my encouragement to someone who's like I don't know what to do, should I make a change, is take the Lord at his word and James won it at him. Like I don't know what else to tell you except to like contend with the Lord over scripture, because he promises that he will give us wisdom and that that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Because I think sometimes what I want is I want to have such an ecstatic experience that the Holy Spirit will like override my having to think it through and decide, that the impression will be so strong that there will be no doubt in my mind. Most of the time that has not been my situation. Most of the time I have been sitting again with James 1 open saying, okay, jesus, here we are again. I'm believing and not doubting. Okay, that's the first thing I want to say about that.
Speaker 1:So good, so good, all right, here's the other thing.
Speaker 2:I want to say about discerning whether we are in the right place and we don't feel like we're fulfilling our purpose or our calling. Okay, and I want to say to us that that is one of the places where discipling our desires and discipling our ambition is really, really important. You know, Ecclesiastes says in no, Ecclesiastes. Yes, Ecclesiastes says in chapter seven that it's better to be no. It's chapter five. It's better to be in the house of mourning than in the house of feasting. And the reason you know, like going to a funeral, funeral, going to memorial service, it's better actually to be in those spaces. Why? Because the living take the purpose of life to heart when we are at the point of death, like there's something about looking at the whole of life that helps us realize what was important. And I think that's what David Brooks was writing about in his book the Road to Character. He talks about how the the difference in life is a difference in life between resume virtues and eulogy virtues.
Speaker 2:And we spend so much of our life talking about our goals to build resume virtues. We want to have accomplished things that we'll end up listing on a resume that the whole world and also Jesus and Peter at the pearly gates, will be impressed with. But what going to funerals and memorial services? What reading Ecclesiastes does is? It reminds us that your purpose in life, the most important thing about you, is who you were in all of those spaces, the character you were, all of those spaces, the character you were. And that aligns so clearly with what scripture teaches.
Speaker 2:Scripture tells us that it is who we are and not what we do that God is after. It is the state of our heart and the state of our character. So I want to say that you can have the most impactful job in the world and if you are a snot to your colleagues, you are not fulfilling God's purpose for your life. Right, and you can be in a dead-end job or you can be wiping butts and unable to legally work for many years, but if we are cultivating the Jesus-like character, we are fulfilling our purpose and calling in the world.
Speaker 2:That is his promise to us. And in the strange and crazy ways of God. That is how he brings his kingdom into being. That is how he has chosen for us to make an impact. And so I'm not saying we shouldn't have goals, or sometimes we shouldn't make a transition, or you should stay where you are forever, but I really want to put a caution on my spirit about what I believe that God's purpose for me in life is, because he's actually made his primary purpose pretty clear.
Speaker 2:And his purpose could be accomplished in any job or doing any project and similarly, his purpose could be missed in any job. Let's not blame our job for our lack of Jesus impact. That's on us, yes, that's on us, for fulfilling our calling.
Speaker 1:Yes, woo, bronwyn, you are on fire right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, when you're coaching you don't get to hear me preach, right. Then I'm just very quiet and asking you questions. But you got me excited with your questions.
Speaker 1:I see that and I'm just like preach girl, preach whoa. Okay, bronwyn, it's so. So much right now. And, gosh, I want to get us kind of wrapping up a little bit here, but all I could think about, as you were saying this last part about where you're at, and just remembering that like we gotta love, like Jesus, even the people that you're at, and just remembering that, like we got to love, like Jesus, even the people that you're, you know, around. If you're in a season right now where you're just no, let me rephrase that you are not just being a mom, you are being a mom. I don't want to say just where you feel, maybe, that you feel like I'm, I'm wiping butts right now. I'm in the thick of it right now. I'm wiping butts right now. I'm in the thick of it right now.
Speaker 1:Jesus did some of the most mundane things to love on people, like he washed his disciples feet, you know, and just loving on people is such a special place to be and we can miss that opportunity because we're so focused on the goal. Right, and it reminds me of Philippians 3, 14, that says I press on towards the goal to win the prize for which God has called me as a word in Christ Jesus, the goal isn't the goal. The goal is heavenward in Christ Jesus, and that's what we have to remember. Like our goal. The goal is to get to heaven right. And if we're so worried about, like, knocking people down to chase what you feel that God put in your heart, are we really seeking the goal that God put in our heart being heavenward? You know, wiping baby's butts doing you know, if you're scrubbing toilets right now, if you are working with people that you have no idea that why they are, you know with you, so to say, or why they are in your workplace. Because you feel like you work with people that are not as bright as you, you know, and you're being rude and obnoxious and stuff to them because you're, like, fixed on where God is taking you.
Speaker 1:Stop for a moment and look at who God surrounded you with. You know, I know there's been times I've been in some situations like that more recently, where I've been, I've been subbing and going back to the schools and I've had that question many times when you work with high school children, like, really, god, really this is where you have to be right now. Right, and again it goes back to like. These are the people that I have in front of you for a season. Just love them. Love them, embrace them. You know, and because that's the ultimate goal, the goal isn't to, you know, write books and speak on platforms and run a business and, you know, do all of these things. No, the goal is to love, like Jesus love.
Speaker 1:And I, just I have that Philippians 3, 14 verse like literally right here above my desk, because this was a verse that God, I used to look at it as like, oh, press on towards the goal, like I'm driven, I, you know, I got to press and again knock those people down as I go towards the goal, but then it's like no, there's a second half to that verse. Leslie, god has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. I can't see Jesus pushing elbows and knocking people down on his way to heaven. So that is a verse that sits with me when it comes to reminding myself about my goals. That it's not about the task, it's not about the releasing this or speaking here or doing this or doing that, it's about the people. And that's where I hope that that is the message that our listeners take away today.
Speaker 1:So, bronwyn, let me wrap up. I have a few just fun questions that I'd love to ask all of my listeners. Okay, we can, I might have to reach out to you and have you come on again, bronwyn, because gosh, so good, so good, um, but I have one question. We're talking about joyful productivity and you know the podcast is your joyful order. But what is one little thing, very simple thing, that brings Bronwyn joy?
Speaker 2:I love, I love the sound of people laughing around a dinner table.
Speaker 2:That is my favorite, favorite thing, and so we host people. Uh, I enjoy people eating and being happy together and we try and practice this on a regular with our family and our kids and we share not just highs and lows but this was something my kids came up with but buffaloes. Every day, we share highs, lows and buffaloes, and a buffalo is something weird or funny that happened this day and, without fail, everybody saw something, did something that was awkward or funny that day and we laugh every day and it's my favorite thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. I absolutely love that. That's so, oh, I love it. Okay, now, what is a great book recommendation that you would give? I'm going to share your book, for sure, awkward Side Hugs Got to get it. But what is a book that you would recommend the listeners, either on this topic that we are talking about, or something that has just really stirred you or impacted you? You gave a, you gave a a good recommendation the road to character by david brooke. I wrote that down. Did I get that right? Okay, but what?
Speaker 2:I hope that that's right.
Speaker 1:Okay, what might be another good book recommendation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did love the Road to Character because it really reflects so much of Scripture's wisdom that he was coming at it with a different set of questions and values.
Speaker 1:That's another book recommendation I read so much, I know you do, I read so much. That's why I'm asking. Well, I ask this of all my guests, because I get recommendations from you guys.
Speaker 2:Okay, at the risk of being really, really cheesy, I'm going to tell you that I was given a number of years ago a 365 day breakdown of the New Living Translation of the Bible to read as a devotional Bible. It wasn't, you know't, organized from Genesis to Revelation. It's organized like January 1st to December 31st and it's a fresh translation and I have come back to it year after year after year after year because it feels to me like it's a constant mix-up of the Bible. It's a constant mix-up which has been really great.
Speaker 2:I love Marilynne Robinson's book Gilead if you want a fiction recommendation which I read years ago and is worth coming back to. It's a beautiful story about an aging pastor in a little town in Iowa and sort of his reckoning with his little flock and his much younger wife written to his son. But what I really loved about that personally was that it describes the interior life of someone trying to love well over many years, like it was just such a beautiful view into a pastoral heart and I don't think you have to be a pastor to have a pastoral heart, but I love that fictional depiction of it. It's a great book.
Speaker 1:I love it. Okay, what was the author's last name? Again, marilynne Robinson.
Speaker 2:Robinson. Okay, so you've got a nonfiction book. Road to Character, a fiction book, gilead by Marilynne Robinson, and then a version of the Bible that I have just continued I think I'm in year nine to find refreshing.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it. You know, I have my favorite devotions that I always go to also, and you're the first person that actually listed a devotion as like a book, a go-to book, and I think that's so profound because when you read devotions, it breaks the word, it breaks the Bible up in a way that is just tangible. You know, very, very, very simple.
Speaker 2:It's literally just the Bible. Look how ratty this thing. If you're watching on YouTube, I mean, it's just like a tattered hot mess.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it, love it. Okay Now, bronwyn, can you let our listeners know where they can find you, and that way they can reach out and follow you?
Speaker 2:Oh sure, I no longer have a website or a blog. I moved away from doing that but I'm on Instagram at Bronwyn underscore Lee, and I'm on Facebook. You can look for my name over there, awesome.
Speaker 1:And we'll drop the links in there, along with the links to your book on Amazon. Thank you, people can pick that up. But thank you so much, bronwyn. As we kind of explored this, you know theme of joyful productivity and aligning our goals with God's plans, I really hope that this conversation inspired you and if this conversation impacted you, please share it with somebody that you love, because that's what we want. We want people to be encouraged and just have wisdom in when it goes to chasing after what God gave them. So if you are inquiring about like next step on taking your goals, reach out, send a DM. I'm sure even Bronwyn if you DM her, ask questions. Y'all ask questions. We're here for that. And just remember until next time, friends. Thank you for listening. Remember to keep chasing joy.